The Sword of Islam 0.4.0 Discussion

:hmm: Mkay... so you´re saying one should check all possible events first before playing this mod. Makes sense, I guess. But is it fun?
 
well, in SoI cheque system will almost always be my first tech priority if I don't already have it, unless I have some other UHV related goal. with the power of mercenaries, especially when the really good ones come up once in a while, it's just so useful to be able to crank gold when you need to. I would also never not have it in 1300, no matter who I was playing. I also wouldn't attempt to go conquering a bunch of cities without it if at all possible.
 
:hmm: Mkay... so you´re saying one should check all possible events first before playing this mod. Makes sense, I guess. But is it fun?
No, nobody's saying that. Games, and especially scenario/script based games like RFC and its modmods rely on a certain amount of trial and error. It's like playing Rome in RFC vanilla and then saying "gosh, I just had all of Europe and then these nasty Spanish and French and Germans took it from me! Ruined forever!". Overcoming historical obstacles that are appropriate for your civ are part of the challenge.

You seem to expect a smooth game in your first playthrough, which isn't really fair.
 
Did you even read my post about trying the Mamluks? :confused: It was smooth alright - it was also totally not fun for over 200 years to try and get the Mamluk economy up and running. That is just plain ridiculous. 100 % inflation plus an unavoidable plague is... :mad: At some point I had 10 cities running on Wealth. :crazyeye:
 
Well if you don't like it, don't play it. I don't know what else to say. Some people like challenges, some people were able to overcome this particular challenge. So your complaints are not very objective.
 
Of course he's not being objective - that's the point of criticism :D

I agree with Leoreth that Mr. Musa's pilgrimage is both historical and an intriguing challenge to the player, and it should definitely be in the game. However, JEELEN also has a good point; the player has zero indication of the Malinese king with his huge entourage coming to visit. It's frustrating because you're just hit with 100% inflation out of the blue. Maybe we could have several events over the course of a few turns that gradually add inflation? That way, you could plan ahead to cushion the disaster before it strikes fully.
 
Well if you don't like it, don't play it. I don't know what else to say. Some people like challenges, some people were able to overcome this particular challenge. So your complaints are not very objective.

I´m OK with a challenge. But playing with 0-30 % science while having 9 cities running on Wealth isn´t what I´d call a challenge. It´s a fail. Which is my point, ´objective´ or not. 50 % inflation might be doable, but this is just plain ridiculous.
 
The reason Mansa Musa event was added is because Mamluks are at an extreme advantage due to a start in the richest region of the mod, already well-developed and with a number of free GPs and Wonders to boot. Even with the event, Mamluks are often the most powerful faction, usually at the head of the tech race (in reality they were staggering behind, which was their ultimate downfall).

I understand it can make people ragequit. Such mechanics could be done differently - I can cut the severity in half, while making the permanent modifiers worse (all civs got those in RFC mods). That would be something like more inflation from the very beginning (10-15%, but you don't see it) and then +50% from the event. It won't be much easier, but the event should be less frustrating.

In case this event haven't scared you off JELEEN, I can assure you there's no more events even remotely as bad as this one, so if you stay away from Egypt, it shouldn't be that bad.
 
First of all, thanks for acknowledging my comment. :)

I´ve tried the Fatimids, Abbasids, Seljuks, Sindh, Makuria (didn´t know that name, by the way, almost got all 3 UHVs), Jerusalem, Antioch, Yemen (I gathered from the Coffee description that the other Coffee might be in Ethiopia), Oman (very frustrating, I´ve no idea how to counter the Portuguese yet, as they took the 4 biggest cities in under 10 turns), Byzantium, Georgia (very fun challenge, lost 2 cities to the Mongol barbs, but Armenia collapsed, and after that it was a cakewalk, even though I totally failed the UHVs), and I may have forgotten 1 more.

I tried all on Emir difficulty (nice touch that, as well as the accurate historians´ names in the mod) to see how they´d go. I must say the outlying civs are a bit tedious (on Emir difficulty at least), probably because they are on the fringe, so they don´t face expansion challenges - especially Makuria, which was a long wait to see if they´d meet the UHV requirements (I missed the luxury goods requirement by a couple of turns, but figured that the easiest way to get a Mediterranean port would be via the Palestine coast, and it turned out as I thought).

I appreciate that the Mamluks, because of their relatively late start, are at an advantage until the inflation event hits. I also have no problem with inflation itself, I was just suggesting that a permanent 100 % inflation might be a tad bit on the extreme (especially since the Portuguese-ship-sinking UHV requires them to research specific techs). I admit that trying the Mamluks was the most frustrating first time of them all, precisely because I didn´t know about the event. But even if I had known, I only completed the Levant UHV because Jerusalem had already collapsed when I started, and Antioch collapsed at the exact point when I´d ran out of units to defend Damascus (I pulled the last defending unit out, because I didn´t want to loose it to the expected next turn assault, and POOF, Antioch was gone, so lucky me). After that it got really frustrating, because I couldn´t get research to go as fast as was needed to be able to sink those Portuguese Carracks - which I wouldn´t be able to anyway if they collapsed, as they were on the way to -, so I was building Great Galleys and Caravels, thinking they might sink a few if they attacked them in numbers. I finally gave up on it, as it was just no fun trying. (I might try them again, now that I know about the inflation event - but it would be far more fun if inflation wasn´t at a permanent 100 % - combined with the plague that results in a less than fun civ to play, and I can´t see it getting more fun at a higher difficulty setting.) I also realize that from the design perspective the inflation event itself is a perfect way to simulate low research capability for the Mamluks, in accordance with historical accuracy - which I always appreciate. (I don´t know if the Mamluks ever sank any Portuguese vessels, but again, in itself that´s a fun challenge.)

Finally, I´d just like to say that this is a great modmod, so: :goodjob:

EDIT 1: I´d like to suggest to add the Mongols a a playable civ (or even 2). They conquered much of the SoI map (only to be stopped by those darn Mamluks); the Il-Khans took over all of Persia and Iraq, and the Chagatai Khanate most of the northeast of the map, as I recall.

EDIT 2: Is there some way to simulate the shortlived Timurid expansion? Especially Timur himself led armies all across the map (even stopping Ottoman expansion in Anatolia temporarily). Perhaps something like the Mongol barb spawns?
 
Historically, Mamluks fought a naval war against the Portuguese, but lost in a few uneven battles of galleys vs. carracks/caravels. The third UHV is meant to reflect this challenge. Note that Portugal cannot collapse or be destroyed and its ships keep coming from Europe even if there's no Portuguese-controlled cities on the map.

It's been 2 years of active development and the civ list is final. Mongols are barbarians so that they can in a short time destroy nearly everything and make space for new civs. I considered Jalayrids, but Il-Khanate would have to conquer most of the map in about 15 turns and collapse 30-40 turns later. There's no way to make that happen naturally under AI unless you just unleash barbarians everywhere. Chagatai is basically off-map.

Timur - as above. There's no way the AI would conquer the map in a few turns, so in the area farthest away from Timurid spawn, it's actually simulated by barbarian invasion ("Turko-Mongol" barbs in Anatolia).
 
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