Is it time to move on? - Discussion/Debate

Could someone explain why V is more like III and IV like II? I don't understand the distinction. The civ iterations all seem like pretty straightforward evolutions to me, but I would characterize the differences between III and IV as being the least significant. Clearly I am missing something! I would also add that SMAC, despite coming before III, seemed more like civ 3.5 in terms of sophistication. FWIW, I went back to SMAC from both III and IV.

I didn't know it at the time, but what I most liked about II (and SMAC and V) was the very natural progression through the difficulty levels. This turned out to be key with keeping me engaged. With both III and IV, one level was much too easy -- but the next one up much too hard.

There were a lot of features missing in Vanilla (pre G&K) Civ 5 that were in Civ 4, and features that were in Civ 3 that also seemed to be in Civ 5, now, those features aren't the big ones, but it felt like a lot of Civ 3 to the point that I was pretty sure if i wanted to I could make Civ 3 feel like Civ 5 at one point.

There was 1 leader per civ, something Civ 3 had
The Tech Tree in Civ 5 was straightfoward and was linear rather than as complex as CIv 4, like in Civ 3 with the exception of non-required to advance era.

And I think that Civ 3 compared to Civ 5 had the same level of straight-forward gaming, I always felt like Civ 4 had an element of sandbox that Civ 5 never had (and I don't know if I had the same feeling with Civ 3)

Again, that's just how I see it.
 
Yeah, I was done with the AI after about 1 month. Play MP
Get bored of FFA and play a 2v2 or 3v3, Get tired of that and play a 2v2v2, get tired of that and it's time to Duel. Get tired of that and it's back to FFA. The game really doesn't get stale.

This is a valid argument that I agree with. The only problem that can occur is if you can't connect to the NQ group you will find it harder to have epic games. I find it very hard to have a good connection with most of the European Players since I live in Las Vegas. Something to do with the West Coast and the distance.

A player could play public games but in reality you have about a 10% chance to have a really amazing experience. I have about 2600 Hrs of MP according to steam. I have had some amazing games with NQ but I usually do not get very good connections and it ruins it for the other players because they have to restart the game and I have to find a public game.

My solution has been 1v1 MP which seems to work just fine for me in public games. I also prefer 1v1 since you do not have to worry about any collusion or the team play that can occur from 6 Player FFA games. When I get bored with 1v1 I just fire up some DCL SP games or GOTM.

Recently I have found the GMR website and games but I do not exactly like that format.
 
Well, I've invested something like 13,000 hours and am not bored. I guess I am easily amused.

In saying that I change things constantly such as maps, who I play as and what social policies.

I'm not into arcade style games- I have played Civ since the first version.

I hope there is a Civ 6. BE bored me to tears.

As of yet, I'll still play BNW.
 
I have just gotten the full pack towards the end of last year, and clocked 300 plus hours so far on Steam. Having a blast atm. :)

Probably still some ways to go for me...
 
I got about 2000 hours played and I still feel like I'm missing out. I missed out on BE though for sure.... :/
 
Well, I've invested something like 13,000 hours and am not bored. I guess I am easily amused

I assume you meant 1300, as opposed to the nearly 10 a day that you're implying? Otherwise, dang. That's crazy. Well done, bit go outside for a bit, lol. (I have about 1945 hrs myself, last I recall)
 
After about 5 years? several DLCs, 2 expansion packs, 1 spin-off (with another non Civ spin-off coming, although technically shouldn't be considered spin-offs).. is it time to just shelf Civ 5 and move onto Civ 6 (which hopefully is in the works.. by Ed and Dennis no less)

I've invested exactly 1402 hours, and that is only on my own account since i used to use my brothers before i got my own copy of the game. That's a lot, I've played with every civilization and have managed to get all but some of the BNW achievements :lol:

And quite frankly.. Civ 5 bores me now, I could go up and do beyond Prince but I don't like the feeling of frustration and careful manipulation of my moves so I can just win.

And quit efrankly, I actually have this feeling, I just want Civ 6 now. Which, hopefully will be better than Civ 5 let's be honest

I mean to this day we stil ldon't have Mod-support for MP which really surprises me.

But my question to you all is.. are you guys ready to move on?

I don't even think there's that many BNW total-conversions anyway, the modding aspect of the game is from what I hear quite laughable. It's very finicky and limiting.

But do people even want Civ 6? Would you guys buy it?

I'm ready to jump ship tbh.

Have you not played Deity at all, or am I misunderstanding you? Prince is easy mode for me. Tried it recently with Egypt, got almost every wonder in the game just to see what would happen. Won a CV without using a single GM tour. Nobody ever DOW-ed me. Nobodoy was even close to my tech level...
 
Semi-necropost, but whatever...

I don't think it's been brought up yet, but there's one *thing* that made Civ4 superb that's been missing from Civ5 and even more so from CivBE. I definitely know there was some of it Civ3 and a bit less in Civ2, but this *thing* I'm talking about is why I'm really, really hoping that someone other than the current Civ5/CivBE team will head the design of Civ6.

That *thing* is design elegance. Civ4 is filled with it, Civ5 has almost none of it.

Let me give you a few examples of design elegance in Civ4 if you don't know what I'm talking about.
Long post incoming!

First though, a bit of background info: Civ4 dealt with governments by a system called civics. They were essentially government "modes" that were split into 5 categories (government, legal system, labor, economy, religion). You slowly unlocked them via tech and could mix and match any civics you wanted, albeit with a few penalties: 1) each time you swapped civics to a new batch, your empire would go into "anarchy", where you essentially missed a turn, and 2) each civic had an associated upkeep (gold was used to control expansion in Civ4 and happiness was used to control individual city growth) that affected the amount of gold you had to pay each turn for your cities.

First example of design elegance: the "democracy" civics (Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Emancipation). These civics were supposed to be the more democracy-oriented civics for Government, Legal, and Labor respectively. Their main effects were to boost the yields of Village and Town improvements to ludicrous levels: you could essentially have a Civ5 custom's house's worth of gold yield that generated a hammer as well from a regular improvement. The catch? Well, Village and Town improvements couldn't be built, they had to be grown. Workers would build a Cottage improvement, roughly equivalent to a trading post in Civ5, and when that Cottage tile was worked for 10 turns, it would turn into a Hamlet (with slightly improved yield), then a Village after another 20 turns, then a Town after a final 40; Emancipation cut the time in half, but it was still a very long time.
Here's where the elegance comes in: if an enemy unit pillages a Village/Town tile, that improvement gets destroyed, which means it will take another 70 or so turns before someone running a democracy civic would get their bonuses back. As a result, Civ4 disincentivizes "democracy" players from waging wars, or at least wars that are close to their home turf, because a single wayward enemy unit could wreck untold havoc on a democracy player's economy.

Another example of design elegance: religion civics. Besides the default civics, there are four religion civics in Civ4: Organized Religion, Theocracy, Pacifism, and Free Religion. Organized Religion gives a production boost when producing buildings in cities that have your religion and lets you build missionaries in cities without monasteries (in Civ4, missionaries require a monastery to built in a city before they can be made, which can cost quite a lot of hammers and can no longer be built after Scientific Method is researched), Theocracy gives a barrack's worth of XP to units produced in cities with your religion (and a second effect I'll ignore for now), Free Religion gives +15% beakers in all cities and happiness from each religion in each city, and let's ignore Pacifism for now; Organized Religion has High Upkeep, Theocracy has Medium Upkeep, and Free Religion has Low Upkeep.
The elegance comes from the bonuses themselves. Early on, being able to build missionaries without have to dedicate hammers to a separate building is a huge boon, the +25% production boost to buildings is also quite helpful, and the high upkeep is easy to swallow when you only have two or three cities. Likewise, the barrack's worth of extra XP to military units means all your military units essentially start off with one extra promotion, and the medium upkeep is even easier to pay than Organized Religion's high upkeep. However, as the game goes on, those bonuses start losing their worth: if you already have monasteries built in each city (they give culture and a bit of science, so it's worth building them sooner or later), that missionary bonus is wasted, and the +25% production boost becomes less and less worth the ludicrous amount of gold you'll have to start paying in upkeep. Similarly, Theocracy's XP bonus becomes negligible when you already have two or three XP-giving buildings in your production cities, since the increasing XP requirements to promote a unit at higher levels means that your units aren't starting off with an extra promotion, just an extra 2 battles' worth of XP.
Even if you have all religion civics unlocked, the game incentivizes following a historic route: having an organized religion or theocracy in the ancient and middle ages, and slowly migrating to free religion in the industrial and modern eras. And this happens naturally through just a simple set of static modifiers, not through forced era gating or arbitrary increases in units' cost.

A third example of design elegance: espionage in Civ4. Espionage in Civ4 worked in two halves: you generated espionage "currency" in your empire from buildings, civics, improvements, etc., and you could spend that intrigue currency on espionage actions performed by Spy units. Spy units were essentially civilians that were invisible to all other units except enemy spies and did not require open borders treaties to move in other people's territory, so you could actually use them as scouts as well as for the espionage system (that's a fourth example of design elegance!), but otherwise you'd have to move them into position before you could use them to perform an espionage action, like stealing gold or poisoning a city's water supply or sabotaging a city's production. To counter spies, you had access to both passive and active counterespionage. Passive counterespionage could be done by increasing your own espionage generation or by building buildings, and it increased the espionage costs of actions against your empire, to the point where people would just go mess with someone else because actions against you would be too costly. Active counterespionage could be done by placing your own spies throughout your empire and having them just watch for spies.
Here's the elegance: spies were still units, and just like all units, you had to pay upkeep for them. And since large empires often needed at least 12 or so spies at minimum to perform basic counterespionage duties, that's a lot of upkeep for having to cover so much ground. You essentially had to decide whether to pay a stupid amount of upkeep to keep your empire spy-free, or to allow a few cracks here and there to give yourself some financial respite and hope your opponents wouldn't catch on.
No weird interplay between increasing spy costs and weird intrigue counters on top of cities, just three basic systems meshing together to form this wonderful system: the fact that you need to place spy units in your enemy's empire to activate espionage actions, the fact that your enemy needs to place their own spy units all over their empire to catch your spies, and the fact that each spy the enemy maintains is another unit they have to pay upkeep for.

I could literally go on and on about Civ4's elegant design, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. This is why I'm so worried about Firaxis' current trajectory (Civ4 -> Civ5 -> CivBE). It's not because they're making bad games, it's because they reached a pinnacle of design elegance in Civ4 and then proceeded to replace these elegant interactions with gamey, overbearing, needlessly obtuse systems that often ended up working worse/shallower.
 
3986 hours played; not ready for Civ 6 just yet.

breakdown (estimated):
5% starting/loading
10% eating/errands/chores
15% staring at screen
20% sleeping
50% actual playtime

so really "only" 2000 hours of playtime.
 
Thats something about good games such as civilization 5 is that they take so long to load.
 
1) Endless Legend.

2) I still enjoy CiV but I limit myself to one game a month.

3) CiVI..... yes. Hell yes. But it won't be any good for a year (or two) after it's released.

I'm hoping they'll announce CiVI at E3 in June. I think it will be somewhat alarming if they don't.
 
Back from a 300 hour stint with BE, I did a 'refresher' game (Random, Quick, Small, Continents, Emperor) which I enjoyed a lot, then after about 2000 hours of Emperor games, moved up to Immortal this weekend and it's like playing a whole new game.

I rolled Brazil, and this game has been epic. I thought about quitting many times and it's still going to be a tight finish. I needed to reload a few times with some insane back stabs from the AI.

It seemed like I spent the first third of the game attempting to take Sparta, but never did. Greece is all filled up with units waiting to back stab me as I commit to a major assault against Siam who has three ship parts already and I am only on my first. The unit spam is off the charts at this level. Siam forced me to change Ideology, I just could not compete culturally with them.
 
I tried BE but because I didnt know anything about how to actually play it, I got bored quickly and went back to CiV. BE is on my list to be played at a future date.
 
I didn't want to BE or go out to space because I heard that people that were loved got to stay. I stayed for love. Unless that's not true which can make me not feel loved at all. This guy was here all the time but did anyone love him? This was tradition I'm guessing. Civilization 6 could be better, I have no civilization 6 plans since making money seems to be more important and there's many other games out there to try such as Europa universalis... i usedto believe that the lack of reason led to god because of the superiority of the Deity difficulty. I've rage quit on Deity difficulty in sp many times. I'm not good at video games or strategy and stuff.
 
I tried BE but because I didnt know anything about how to actually play it, I got bored quickly and went back to CiV. BE is on my list to be played at a future date.

I played BE exclusively for 3 months when it came out and completely stopped playing BNW. After 3 months I felt like I had done all there was to do and dominated almost every MP game I played. SP was unplayable due to the AI being abysmal.

The game is very 1 dimensional and lacks substance. Many aspects of it need to be re-worked completely in order for it be in the same league as BNW.

I went back to BNW. I feel like 3 months to learn and figure out the game was a very fair chance.

It's still fun to play a game now and then but I never expect the games to be as in depth as a BNW FFA.
 
We do not need a "Civilization V" yet. Many people still play the game: http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

I've invested over 2000 hours of this game and I don't think it is time to make a Civilization VI yet. If they are going to make one, I'm going to think twice about it because of my experience with the MultiPlayer they designed - It is awful. That is my main issue. I want them to learn from their mistakes from this game if they decide to make the next one. Peer to peer doesn't work well, I think it's time to start moving away from the peer to peer system. It's just way too flawed with the connection (and crash) issues. Dedicated servers should be possible in the next game. I want a MultiPlayer that actually works half-decent, it doesn't have to be perfect when its released that doesn't happen.

Diplomacy needs a work around as well. I want a system more like Europa Universals IV, make Coalitions, have a vassal system, ect. A nation who has a DoF with another one and goes to war with them shouldn't face aggressive expansion penalties with them. Why this is I don't know.

Also you can reach a modifier in the game just by taking four cities in where it says: "They fear your nation will bring the world into a Dark age!" (or something like that). For taking four cities. And four cities shouldn't get you at the max penalty because I have indeed seen it.... ON HUGE MAPS! And why do you even get aggressive expansion penalty for declaring war on a city state, when they haven't even met them in the first place? Again it makes no sense. In fact why would they even care about something that happened 1000s of miles across an entire ocean?

That being said, I still love the game, its addicting as fun. I don't want it to end yet, maybe in another year or so, but theres still a lot of replay-ability to it.
 
I didnt spend a lot of time on civ v (i spent most of my time playing 2 at university and played 4 to death)

For me when i got bored i would play the scenarios, i loved the earth maps for instance. Or try a mod such as rhyes

As for civ vi, to be honest i doubt i would be able to play it until i build a new desktop- it would be interesting to see which way they go though
(casual or not)
 
Agree with Delnar about Civ 4 - definitely something lacking in Civ 5.

As for Civ6, I plan to wait an see until I buy it. I bought Civ 5 on day one and was real disappointed. Firaxis issued the game before it was done and if you think the AI is stupid now, then it was ridiculous.
 
What, leave? Civilization is not the usual game, that you play a lot, then lesss and then stop playing it. It's a game where you can always come back. I play lots of games, but between each 2-4 of them, I always play some civilization games. I don't play 2 months straight. I play some games, then leave it again, play some other new shiny game, and then come back to civ.

If you are bored, you don't have to leave it forever. Just stop playing, play something else. And maybe in 1 month you will play again. This has been the case since civ1. Few other games are like this.
 
Semi-necropost, but whatever...

I don't think it's been brought up yet, but there's one *thing* that made Civ4 superb that's been missing from Civ5 and even more so from CivBE. I definitely know there was some of it Civ3 and a bit less in Civ2, but this *thing* I'm talking about is why I'm really, really hoping that someone other than the current Civ5/CivBE team will head the design of Civ6.

That *thing* is design elegance. Civ4 is filled with it, Civ5 has almost none of it.

Let me give you a few examples of design elegance in Civ4 if you don't know what I'm talking about.
Long post incoming!

First though, a bit of background info: Civ4 dealt with governments by a system called civics. They were essentially government "modes" that were split into 5 categories (government, legal system, labor, economy, religion). You slowly unlocked them via tech and could mix and match any civics you wanted, albeit with a few penalties: 1) each time you swapped civics to a new batch, your empire would go into "anarchy", where you essentially missed a turn, and 2) each civic had an associated upkeep (gold was used to control expansion in Civ4 and happiness was used to control individual city growth) that affected the amount of gold you had to pay each turn for your cities.

First example of design elegance: the "democracy" civics (Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Emancipation). These civics were supposed to be the more democracy-oriented civics for Government, Legal, and Labor respectively. Their main effects were to boost the yields of Village and Town improvements to ludicrous levels: you could essentially have a Civ5 custom's house's worth of gold yield that generated a hammer as well from a regular improvement. The catch? Well, Village and Town improvements couldn't be built, they had to be grown. Workers would build a Cottage improvement, roughly equivalent to a trading post in Civ5, and when that Cottage tile was worked for 10 turns, it would turn into a Hamlet (with slightly improved yield), then a Village after another 20 turns, then a Town after a final 40; Emancipation cut the time in half, but it was still a very long time.
Here's where the elegance comes in: if an enemy unit pillages a Village/Town tile, that improvement gets destroyed, which means it will take another 70 or so turns before someone running a democracy civic would get their bonuses back. As a result, Civ4 disincentivizes "democracy" players from waging wars, or at least wars that are close to their home turf, because a single wayward enemy unit could wreck untold havoc on a democracy player's economy.

Another example of design elegance: religion civics. Besides the default civics, there are four religion civics in Civ4: Organized Religion, Theocracy, Pacifism, and Free Religion. Organized Religion gives a production boost when producing buildings in cities that have your religion and lets you build missionaries in cities without monasteries (in Civ4, missionaries require a monastery to built in a city before they can be made, which can cost quite a lot of hammers and can no longer be built after Scientific Method is researched), Theocracy gives a barrack's worth of XP to units produced in cities with your religion (and a second effect I'll ignore for now), Free Religion gives +15% beakers in all cities and happiness from each religion in each city, and let's ignore Pacifism for now; Organized Religion has High Upkeep, Theocracy has Medium Upkeep, and Free Religion has Low Upkeep.
The elegance comes from the bonuses themselves. Early on, being able to build missionaries without have to dedicate hammers to a separate building is a huge boon, the +25% production boost to buildings is also quite helpful, and the high upkeep is easy to swallow when you only have two or three cities. Likewise, the barrack's worth of extra XP to military units means all your military units essentially start off with one extra promotion, and the medium upkeep is even easier to pay than Organized Religion's high upkeep. However, as the game goes on, those bonuses start losing their worth: if you already have monasteries built in each city (they give culture and a bit of science, so it's worth building them sooner or later), that missionary bonus is wasted, and the +25% production boost becomes less and less worth the ludicrous amount of gold you'll have to start paying in upkeep. Similarly, Theocracy's XP bonus becomes negligible when you already have two or three XP-giving buildings in your production cities, since the increasing XP requirements to promote a unit at higher levels means that your units aren't starting off with an extra promotion, just an extra 2 battles' worth of XP.
Even if you have all religion civics unlocked, the game incentivizes following a historic route: having an organized religion or theocracy in the ancient and middle ages, and slowly migrating to free religion in the industrial and modern eras. And this happens naturally through just a simple set of static modifiers, not through forced era gating or arbitrary increases in units' cost.

A third example of design elegance: espionage in Civ4. Espionage in Civ4 worked in two halves: you generated espionage "currency" in your empire from buildings, civics, improvements, etc., and you could spend that intrigue currency on espionage actions performed by Spy units. Spy units were essentially civilians that were invisible to all other units except enemy spies and did not require open borders treaties to move in other people's territory, so you could actually use them as scouts as well as for the espionage system (that's a fourth example of design elegance!), but otherwise you'd have to move them into position before you could use them to perform an espionage action, like stealing gold or poisoning a city's water supply or sabotaging a city's production. To counter spies, you had access to both passive and active counterespionage. Passive counterespionage could be done by increasing your own espionage generation or by building buildings, and it increased the espionage costs of actions against your empire, to the point where people would just go mess with someone else because actions against you would be too costly. Active counterespionage could be done by placing your own spies throughout your empire and having them just watch for spies.
Here's the elegance: spies were still units, and just like all units, you had to pay upkeep for them. And since large empires often needed at least 12 or so spies at minimum to perform basic counterespionage duties, that's a lot of upkeep for having to cover so much ground. You essentially had to decide whether to pay a stupid amount of upkeep to keep your empire spy-free, or to allow a few cracks here and there to give yourself some financial respite and hope your opponents wouldn't catch on.
No weird interplay between increasing spy costs and weird intrigue counters on top of cities, just three basic systems meshing together to form this wonderful system: the fact that you need to place spy units in your enemy's empire to activate espionage actions, the fact that your enemy needs to place their own spy units all over their empire to catch your spies, and the fact that each spy the enemy maintains is another unit they have to pay upkeep for.

I could literally go on and on about Civ4's elegant design, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. This is why I'm so worried about Firaxis' current trajectory (Civ4 -> Civ5 -> CivBE). It's not because they're making bad games, it's because they reached a pinnacle of design elegance in Civ4 and then proceeded to replace these elegant interactions with gamey, overbearing, needlessly obtuse systems that often ended up working worse/shallower.


This post hits the nail on the head!
 
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