SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

Yes, keeping the warriors alive is going to be risky. I can't tell you how many 5% attacks I lost while playing. Luckily ZP "Toto Killer" V is really good against barb animals... ;)
:blush:
@Dhoom I don't see how a perfect Space game could compete with a well-played Cultural game. In my mind, Space isn't an option but Culture is still on the table.

@ZPV When do you plan to play?

Space? It's very unlikely. Even an unfocused culture game will finish before space.
Culture is just barely a possibility, for me. We need to put significant early resources into non-cultural stuff, so we probably can't get an astonishing culture date, but other victories might prove very difficult.

That leaves Religious/Domination/Conquest, depending on the other civs.
I'll have to play in a few hours, since tomorrow is very busy. After that, I have time again.
 
Good luck, ZPV! Find some copper!! Although this will throw LC's perfectly planned worker management out the window... unless it's under a mine we've already built! :please:
 
Good luck, ZPV!

Don't forget to auto-spread Hinduism and find lots of precious metals in our mines . . .
 
Forgive my noobishness.... Whats the difference?
Cease Fire = both sides are at peace and units get teleported out of each others' territory. However, war can be redeclared by either side at any time, including immediately after the Cease Fire. Nothing can be exchanged as part of the peace deal (i.e. neither side can give or get techs, Gold, a World Map, a City, etc).

Peace = both sides are at peace and units get teleported out of each others' territory, but in addition, neither side can redeclare war for 10 turns. One side may give the other side something (techs, Gold, a World Map, a City, etc) as part of the peace deal.
 
Forgive my noobishness.... Whats the difference?
In addition to what Dhoom said, there are strategic considerations.

1. The most obvious might be that you want to guarantee 10 turns of safety, so yo ucan rebuild your army or bring units to the front, so you DoP.

2. Sometimes, you've just captured a city with your last or almost last, wounded unit. Upon entering, you now see he has reinforcements on teh other side who can easily recapture the city in the interturn. But you have plenty of units to bring in next turn and you want to continue your offensive rather than wait 10 turns. So you CF, then next turn move your units in and DoW as soon as you're ready. Of course, if the AI had any brains at all, he'd just DoW and re-capture the city, but he doesn't...

3. A more subtle strategy, and one that may apply to our situation, is that if you CF you reserve the possibility of DoWing him if it appears he's about to DoW you. The key here is that if you DoW him, he'll be willing to talk twice sooner than if he DoWs you. In our situation, where we're not yet mobilized or mobilizing and don't even have a strong unit available, and we don't actually want to fight any war until we get to COnstruction, we might want to minimize the damage if he mobilizes prematurely.
 
Often, when you're stealing workers from an AI, you can steal, cease fire, steal, cease fire, etc. In SGOTM-12, LC nicked something like 8 workers from Louis in the span of ten turns. :eek: Had we signed a peace treaty instead, he would have only been able to steal 2 workers in that same time span.

Regarding the mechanics, the Cease Fire option is on the screen as soon as you talk to an AI (assuming he's willing to talk). The text says: "Let's stop this pointless fighting and declare peace!" Or, you can select: "We would like to make a trade proposal." and Cease Fire will automatically be on the table.

When making a trade proposal, you can put "Peace Treaty (10 turns)" on the table. You can also put other things on the table like gold, techs, cities, etc. like Dhoom said above. If you put anything on the table first, Peace Treaty will automatically be part of the deal as well.
 
Cease Fire = both sides are at peace and units get teleported out of each others' territory. However, war can be redeclared by either side at any time, including immediately after the Cease Fire. Nothing can be exchanged as part of the peace deal (i.e. neither side can give or get techs, Gold, a World Map, a City, etc).

Peace = both sides are at peace and units get teleported out of each others' territory, but in addition, neither side can redeclare war for 10 turns. One side may give the other side something (techs, Gold, a World Map, a City, etc) as part of the peace deal.

Wow, I dont believe I didnt know this and I've been playing this for years. Does it minimize the relation hit as well when you redeclare war?
 
Wow, I dont believe I didnt know this and I've been playing this for years. Does it minimize the relation hit as well when you redeclare war?

Nope. You get -3 for each one. You just don't have to wait 10 turns.
 
Ok, here we go.
t39
We destroy the wounded lion, down to 1.7/2. That's acceptable.
IBT:
no animals appear.
t40
Toku has just one archer in Osaka.
The worker doesn't see any barbs from Marble-E.
IBT:
Hammuragawa founds Akkad in a distant land. There's no sign of his borders.
t41
CF with Toku.
The gems lion... has become extinct of its own accord.
Our warrior moves onto the future gold city site, where it'll heal for a turn.
IBT:
t42
Gold-E Locks is founded. There's even less land than we expected, north of Osaka - the mountain line kinks down one tile. There are no barbs in sight.
The western warrior is now in position at Banana-1S.
IBT:
t43
IBT: Another Toku worker appears on the corn. Sorry man, but we're not in position to convert you to the cause.
t44
---
t46:
IBT: Judaism FIDL
t47:
And we have copper. Exactly where most people would have founded Delhi. (1E of the floodplains). That's a useful site.
I'll upload, so that people can have a look.
Spoiler upload log :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2440 BC to 2120 BC:

Turn 39, 2440 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 1 (Delhi) (2.00) vs Barbarian's Lion (1.04)
Turn 39, 2440 BC: Combat Odds: 99.0%
Turn 39, 2440 BC: (Animal Combat: -10%)
Turn 39, 2440 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (35/100HP)
Turn 39, 2440 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 1 (Delhi) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 39, 2440 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (12/100HP)
Turn 39, 2440 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 39, 2440 BC: Gandhi's Warrior 1 (Delhi) has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

Turn 41, 2360 BC: You have made peace with Tokugawa!

Turn 42, 2320 BC: Gold-E Locks has been founded.

Turn 45, 2200 BC: Delhi has grown to size 4.

Turn 46, 2160 BC: Gold-E Locks will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have discovered a source of Copper near Delhi!
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 47, 2120 BC: Gold-E Locks has grown to size 2.
 
Superb play, ZPV!

Unbelievably good luck for us!* We've grown Delhi at just the right time, we've got a worker ready to start mining the copper, if we decide that's the way to go. Wow!

So it's back to the drawing board, obviously. We'll have to optimize this. Do you have time to update the test save or you want someone else to do it? I think we pretty much know what you did, right?


*And miserably bad luck for those who settled on the copper.
 
Superb play, ZPV!

Unbelievably good luck for us!* We've grown Delhi at just the right time, we've got a worker ready to start mining the copper, if we decide that's the way to go. Wow!

So it's back to the drawing board, obviously. We'll have to optimize this. Do you have time to update the test save or you want someone else to do it? I think we pretty much know what you did, right?


*And miserably bad luck for those who settled on the copper.

I'll update the test save in an hour or so. I'm sure you know what I did.
There's a small chance of a barb in the southern fog, but no more can spawn.
 
I'll update the test save in an hour or so. I'm sure you know what I did.
There's a small chance of a barb in the southern fog, but no more can spawn.
Okay. Plus, upload the saves, please, so I can count the worldwide cities and update my excel chart.

Yes, I just now realized that since you got that warrior to Bananas1N already, the other warrior doesn't even need to risk his life going up on the hill. He can stand pat and see if something appears from the fog and dive into our culture if necessary. That's great! I was concerned about that risk.

And once Gold-E Locks expands, we'll have almost entirely fogbusted that area too, assuming it's blocked.

TOku still doesn't have copper. We'll have to consider buildling an axe for worker stealing. We could go to town with one axe.
 
Okay. Plus, upload the saves, please, so I can count the worldwide cities and update my excel chart.

Yes, I just now realized that since you got that warrior to Bananas1N already, the other warrior doesn't even need to risk his life going up on the hill. He can stand pat and see if something appears from the fog and dive into our culture if necessary. That's great! I was concerned about that risk.

And once Gold-E Locks expands, we'll have almost entirely fogbusted that area too, assuming it's blocked.

TOku still doesn't have copper. We'll have to consider buildling an axe for worker stealing. We could go to town with one axe.
Here are the saves.
 

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  • SG15-2440-2120.zip
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Nice work, ZPV!!! One way to survive fights with barb animals is to avoid them!! :goodjob:

I think this is a good place to stop and re-plan with the copper. My guess is that we may be able to replace a chop with a citizen on the copper mine . Actual, the citizen would have move from a mined hill (1F3H) to a gassland copper mine (2F4H1C) So we'd have to work it for 20/(6FH - 4FH) = 10 turns when building workers/settlers and 20 turns when building something else. Hmmm...
 
I'll update the test save in an hour or so. I'm sure you know what I did.
There's a small chance of a barb in the southern fog, but no more can spawn.

Here's an updated test save. Toku and Hammy might not match up exactly, but the beakers definitely do.
 

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  • OSS BC-2120 TEST SAVE.CivBeyondSwordSave
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I think this is a good place to stop and re-plan with the copper. My guess is that we may be able to replace a chop with a citizen on the copper mine . Actual, the citizen would have move from a mined hill (1F3H) to a gassland copper mine (2F4H1C) So we'd have to work it for 20/(6FH - 4FH) = 10 turns when building workers/settlers and 20 turns when building something else. Hmmm...
The question is, can we get the Oracle done a turn sooner now? :cool:
 
I just had a quick go following LC's basic plan with the exception of mining the copper right away rather than chopping (I used 1 less chop for Delhi). Gems and Marble were each settled wiith a one turn delay as was the GS, Math and the Oracle. I'm sure that it can be optimized to mine the copper and keep the same Oracle date but I don't have the time this evening to figure it out. I just wanted to quickly see what the impact would be if we chose to mine the copper first.

One thing to note was that we don't get copper until we build a road on it and connect it to Delhi's river.

EDIT: I can get it a turn later....:blush:
 
Great work, ZPV! :goodjob:

It's really nice when those 99% battles actually go in your favour, which is not always the case, but is still something that people expect to have happen.


LowtherCastle said:
Toku still doesn't have copper. We'll have to consider buildling an axe for worker stealing. We could go to town with one axe.
Do we know if Toku has Bronze Working? If he has it, then we at least know that his capital isn't settled on top of a Copper Resource.


The question is, can we get the Oracle done a turn sooner now? :cool:
I thought that we were tight on Worker actions as it was... perhaps we can if we build yet another Worker from somewhere. :mischief:


Having Copper also means that Catapults are viable without needing Iron Working.


As for LowtherCastle's earlier comment about Slavery potentially costing us +1 (or more) Maintenance per turn, we can always slip into Slavery and then slip out of it... perhaps even slipping into it up to 5 turns earlier than we plan to use it if doing so will cost us less than slipping into it on the turn that we plan to use it, as long as we won't need it again for the following 5 turns.
 
The question is, can we get the Oracle done a turn sooner now? :cool:

Yes we can but it involves settling Crab/Marble before Pig/Gem and not waiting for the Great Scientist.

So tech path may change slightly to fishing before pottery
 
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