Domination victory impossible? And world congress a tool against the human player?

OK So i was shocked to hear all the new world resolution of the world congress. Let me explain.

It seems most resolution only heart the human player because the AI has huge bonusses for it.

Baning luxuries : It will reduce you're happiness and you can't trade it anymore this only hurts the human player because the AI ignores happiness and trading it olso doens't hurt them.

Trade embargo's : with the Ai gold bonusses not allowing to trade will not hurt them so much it will mostly hurt the AI.

Standing army tax: Really? The AI gets massive bonusses with this so again this only hurts the human player if it is proposed.

Some other broken things :
One world religion really? Say goodby to you're choosen believes ones the AI propose this
One world ideology say goodby to you're ideology bonusses and go into anarchy or get hated by everyone. just because some idiots propsed it.


Will they fix the warmonger penalty?
if the warmonger penalty will not be changed it will happen that if you declare war 1 time will make you the manage of the world. and you get ridicoulous proposals .

SO Imagine the zulu's capture you're city state and you declare to recapture it the world congress with punish you for it really?

Not to mention there is no way to conduct diplomacy when you are going for a domination game once you declared war 2 times you might as well go domination game because the hole world hates you be ready for ridicoulous propsals against you proparly most people will go for other victories It seems domination victory has become the new worthless victory type

Share you thoughts I'm not so thrilled about these changes ...

Have you considered the option of you, allied city-states and civs you're friends with or whose vote you bought voting against resolutions that might hurt you?

so your argument is if the Resolutions which you vote against are passed they will make the game harder to win? i agree

World Religion and World Ideology don't force you to adopt a particular one, but they give extra delegates to those that do.

Therefore you have a choice between swapping in order to gain an advantage in the Congress, or keeping your tenets. Seems fair to me: the idea of these policies is to screw other players over to some extent. There's not going to be some huge AI-bloc that has the same religion or ideology, and you have just as much chance of proposing that it be your religion/ideology.

The diplomatic penalty to ideology also already exists since G&K. Generating blocs is the whole point of the system.

Uberfrog said:

World Religion and World Ideology don't force you to adopt a particular one, but they give extra delegates to those that do.

Therefore you have a choice between swapping in order to gain an advantage in the Congress, or keeping your tenets. Seems fair to me: the idea of these policies is to screw other players over to some extent. There's not going to be some huge AI-bloc that has the same religion or ideology, and you have just as much chance of proposing that it be your religion/ideology.

The diplomatic penalty to ideology also already exists since G&K. Generating blocs is the whole point of the system.

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Didn't know that still not so sure if standing army tax and trading bans will hurt the AI...

Dude, every post you write is whining about how the AI is out to get you. Give it a rest.

Maybe you'd be happier playing a different game..

The banning of luxuries, presuming AI bonuses remain as is, will effectively be pointless but only so on the higher levels. Against King and under it should retain some of its potency.

I'd have said the same thing really with the standing army tax except that the potential penalty is much higher. It'll still be offset by the extra gold the AI gets but it'll certainly harm them. Remember that the reason why the AI gets bonuses is because it can't compete against strong players without them. I'm pretty positive that a human will be able to deal with this far better than the AI will.

One religion/ideology - This is not terribly concerning.

They haven't mentioned the warmonger issue and I don't think we've come across much yet that will help you get positive relations with the AI so the jury is out on this one.

SO Imagine the zulu's capture you're city state and you declare to recapture it the world congress with punish you for it really?

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I'm not sure what the World Congress has to do with this, but to the point at large - this happens already.

I do, however, think you have a point in that if the AI's diplomacy is not adequately prepared to deal with these new mechanics it could be an outright disaster.

Seek said:

Dude, every post you write is whining about how the AI is out to get you. Give it a rest.

Maybe you'd be happier playing a different game..

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i'm allready doing that but with the new expansion I may give it a new try i'just want some info so i don't buy a game that hasn't beeing changed.

And I have to admit i'm sometimes a troll but I only do that so maybe firaxis read it and will fix this crazy diplomacy model

Veneke said:

They haven't mentioned the warmonger issue and I don't think we've come across much yet that will help you get positive relations with the AI so the jury is out on this one.


I do, however, think you have a point in that if the AI's diplomacy is not adequately prepared to deal with these new mechanics it could be an outright disaster.

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Exactly you get my point if they don't change the warmonger penalty and add more positif modifiers for the early game then the world congress will become a nightmare
thats my biggest conern

When I think about it from that point of view...I don't care for the changes either. Warmongering, my favorite thing, will be much tougher.
They must have considered the shortcomings of AI diplomacy in the current game and made moves to remedy many anoying issues. Hopefully the AI will be brought along as much as CiV is going to be due to this expansion.

I also hope the World Congress is not overly annoying. Hopefully it is interesting, and I hope as well that the AI acts a bit more sane.

One more thing. I was thinking of making a separate thread about what changes will BNW bring change for warmongers. This has not been discussed all that much. What I am wondering is will BNW make domination victory very difficilt to achieve? In my mind I think the new culture system will probably add a lot more animosity into the game. We'll see about that. If not the World Congress surely will create a boatload of it. If anyone has any thoughts. I'd like to read them.

Art Grin said:

Have you considered the option of you, allied city-states and civs you're friends with or whose vote you bought voting against resolutions that might hurt you?

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Exactly this. It would be poor design if the resolutions weren't more likely to harm you than the AI, because you would suffer no penalty for playing the diplomatic game badly (and hence making fewer allies). This is like arguing that the Great Wall is badly-designed because if the AI builds it you'll suffer a penalty.

Exactly you get my point if they don't change the warmonger penalty and add more positif modifiers for the early game then the world congress will become a nightmare
thats my biggest conern

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I think they have explicitly stated that you'll no longer get an automatic warmonger penalty for going to war or wiping out a single civ. But I never have trouble maintaining alliances while playing somewhat aggressively at the moment.

Remember that CSes also get votes, so you can still play to dominate other civs and use city-state alliances to stop resolutions you don't like.

I've noticed people seem to ignore two major points

1. AI is said to be a lot less crazy, source : Dennis said it in the live Q&A

2. AI is no longer going to be angry if you declare war, the warmonger penalty is decreased, : Dennis said it in the live Q&A

This doesn't necessairly mean that the diplomacy is fixed, but it does mean that they have attempted to fix it.

With stuff like this, I tend to trust their ability to playtest enough to at least wait until I can play myself. I like the general function that the new World Congress is intended to play, and part of that concerns the repercussions for warmongers. You should be punished for ignoring diplomatic relations, but you should also be able to manipulate the WC so that you can do what you wanna do anyways. Going totally Shaka (i.e, no nuance, straight rampage) should be difficult, but impossible? Nah.

I'm certain there will be a "disable world congress" option just as there is a "disable espionage" option, so if it bothers you that much you can do that.

apocalypse105 said:

It seems most resolution only heart the human player because the AI has huge bonusses for it.

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I assume you meant "hurt". If so, the problem with that is...what? Civ5 plays about 2 levels higher than it should and anything that penalizes the human player specifically can only be a good thing, given the advantages we have over the AI. Civ5 is by far the best game of the series and incredibly fun to play but it really needs to be more challenging in normal situations.

Buccaneer said:

I assume you meant "hurt". If so, the problem with that is...what? Civ5 plays about 2 levels higher than it should and anything that penalizes the human player specifically can only be a good thing, given the advantages we have over the AI. Civ5 is by far the best game of the series and incredibly fun to play but it really needs to be more challenging in normal situations.

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I like the challenge of the higher levels although I am not that good above king/emperor, I wish there was one level that was truly equal with the cpu. Just to have your embargo's and other choices actually affect them. The higher levels are supposed to be really hard but it is annoying on the supposedly equal level of prince to see the cpu with such high happiness.

TheKingOfBigOz said:

I've noticed people seem to ignore two major points

1. AI is said to be a lot less crazy, source : Dennis said it in the live Q&A

2. AI is no longer going to be angry if you declare war, the warmonger penalty is decreased, : Dennis said it in the live Q&A

This doesn't necessairly mean that the diplomacy is fixed, but it does mean that they have attempted to fix it.

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I had to listen through that awful lag once more because I couldn't remember him saying the second point. He certainly says it'll be less nuts but the only inference to the reduction in the warmonger penalty is that '...if you take over one civ or one city you're not suddenly a warmonger...'. The penalty itself hasn't been decreased (at least, that's not what he said) but rather the bar you need to reach to be labelled a warmonger has been pushed up a small bit.

He goes on to talk quite a bit more about how the AI has been redone so that it cares about long-term relationships. If this is true then, I would assume, that it'll take it's relationship with you into account when looking at what to do at the World Congress.

Veneke said:

The penalty itself hasn't been decreased (at least, that's not what he said) but rather the bar you need to reach to be labelled a warmonger has been pushed up a small bit.

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Even if the warmonger penalty is just slightly reduced, overall ability to make friends is increased.

First thing is ideologies. If you're playing warmonger, you most likely go Autocracy and it will be easy to befriend other warmongers with the same policy (as they'll probably will be in very much need of friends). Think about Germany and Japan in WW2.

Second thing is the World Congress itself. As you could see, proposing resolutions benefiting some civs makes relations with those civs better.

I haven't followed the news in a while, I'll need ro look into it. I haven't heard anything about a standing army tax, that is OUTRAGEOUS! What the heck kind of world council is going to charge me based on how big my army is? What is this, the UN is the "army" of every nation, but is really just an occupying force that plunders the people like was done in Cyprus for "taxes", and then transferring "taxes" to some global central bank that is owned by private individuals forprofit, like the International Monetary Fund, so that then it can be used to fund the UN troops that occupy the world? Is this what this outrageous standing army tax is all about, just a bunch of propoganda?

Some "global authority" that charges me for having an army makes me want to go rogue and disobey the world congress all together.

stealth_nsk said:

Even if the warmonger penalty is just slightly reduced, overall ability to make friends is increased.

...

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Well yes, but nothing about the penalty being reduced has been said. It's been moved by the sounds of it, which is not the same thing.

The ideological boost in relations exists already in-game. The only change that we know definitively is that it will always exist, whereas currently you can avoid it. It's possible that it's a more significant boost than it is in GnK but that's not been said anywhere that I've read.


@aluelkdf

The standing army tax is a +25% increase in maintenance for units across the board. I'm pretty sure that all of the resolutions have been revealed.

When does these policies become available? I haven't heard of too many getting much into the late branches currently (games are usually close to finishing or the costs too prohibited), so why all this talk about the tenets unless they come a lot sooner and are a lot cheaper?