Domination victory impossible? And world congress a tool against the human player?

Evie94 said:
so your argument is if the Resolutions which you vote against are passed they will make the game harder to win? i agree
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And I find the new challenge very interesting. I dont play at higher levels yet, I mostly play at King, and still generally do pretty well, this will only add new flavor and difficulty for the games I play and I am all for that.
 
Veneke said:
To be honest, I really struggle to see your point in all this. It appears almost as if you'd prefer the game to simply stop around the modern era rather than continuing on.
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My point is that most good players win (or lose) the game at higher difficulties between turn 275-325 (with occasional pre-250). They are implementing a number of nice elements that wouldn't begin to appear/open/be available until after turn 325. One can choose not to play effectively and spend quite a bit of time in modern+, which I have done at times (one time just to see what the rage was all about regarding stealth bombers). It seems that a lot of effort is being put into the late game when many games do not even last that much into it (standard speed), particularly late game policies/ideologies. If you are not play cultural, for example, you're lucky if you get most of the policies in Rationalism, let alone that late trees.

I also realize that they are making a number of changes to early-mid game elements, not to mention new civs (which are always cool); so it's not all late game elements. It's just a lot of people are talking about elements (like tenets) that they may not even get to see in a game at higher difficulties (either because you have won effectively or an AI has beaten you).
 
Yea I have to agree with Buccaneer. If new game mechanics are added, the focus should be 90% pre Modern Era so players get a real chance to see them/use them. The factory requirement for Ideologies, makes me think we will at least see use of them though so no worries there
 
I have (perhaps misplaced) confidence that the new mechanics will be exciting/important enough to drastically change the late game. Whether it be the WC/UN resolutions dampening the speed of conquest or diplo victories, losing cities via ideological tourism slowing science victories or the added challenge of the completely new cultural victory it seems that BNW's additions will be felt deeply in the late game. I fully expect both an increase for tech costs and a decrease for SP/tenet costs in the later eras, making both decisions more meaningful. With G&K's release we saw the most balanced iteration of Civ 5 yet released, so there's precedent that BNW will further refine that. Of course, whether this confidence will be borne out remains to be seen. If nothing else, Communitas has and hopefully will continue to address issues such as these, so I suppose I'm not too worried about it since I'll rarely play the game unmodded.
 
Buccaneer said:
My point is that most good players win (or lose) the game at higher difficulties between turn 275-325 (with occasional pre-250). They are implementing a number of nice elements that wouldn't begin to appear/open/be available until after turn 325. One can choose not to play effectively and spend quite a bit of time in modern+, which I have done at times (one time just to see what the rage was all about regarding stealth bombers). It seems that a lot of effort is being put into the late game when many games do not even last that much into it (standard speed), particularly late game policies/ideologies. If you are not play cultural, for example, you're lucky if you get most of the policies in Rationalism, let alone that late trees.

I also realize that they are making a number of changes to early-mid game elements, not to mention new civs (which are always cool); so it's not all late game elements. It's just a lot of people are talking about elements (like tenets) that they may not even get to see in a game at higher difficulties (either because you have won effectively or an AI has beaten you).
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"Good players" win the game so early because of a) superior battlefield tactics and b) taking advantage of the AI's gold. They haven't mentioned any changes to AI battlefield tactics or the AI's willingness to throw gold at the player, so I have a feeling that players like tommynt won't even realize that they are playing a new expansion.
 
And they, along with lessor mortals and those playing Challenge games, GOTM and HOF games all do so without gameplay mods.
 
aluelkdf said:
I haven't followed the news in a while, I'll need ro look into it. I haven't heard anything about a standing army tax, that is OUTRAGEOUS! What the heck kind of world council is going to charge me based on how big my army is? What is this, the UN is the "army" of every nation, but is really just an occupying force that plunders the people like was done in Cyprus for "taxes", and then transferring "taxes" to some global central bank that is owned by private individuals forprofit, like the International Monetary Fund, so that then it can be used to fund the UN troops that occupy the world? Is this what this outrageous standing army tax is all about, just a bunch of propoganda?

Some "global authority" that charges me for having an army makes me want to go rogue and disobey the world congress all together.
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Why are you bringing in real world stuff at all? Its obviously for gameplay, as are the other options. If I am trying a peaceful game, it would behoove me to vote for an army tax, so that Shaka can't have as large of a standing army.

Its a strategy game, I think you need to take a step back and relax.
 
Gamewizard said:
"Good players" win the game so early because of a) superior battlefield tactics and b) taking advantage of the AI's gold. They haven't mentioned any changes to AI battlefield tactics or the AI's willingness to throw gold at the player, so I have a feeling that players like tommynt won't even realize that they are playing a new expansion.
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I think removing the gold from river and coastal tiles, and allegedly lowering other gold amounts as well, is going to mean that buying your first worker is going to be harder, and even if you steal your first worker, that the AI won't have 240 gold available when you hook up your first luxury. And of course making the AI refuse to give significant gold for your luxury if they have a spare luxury to trade themselves, or if they have a lot of happiness already.
 
Buccaneer said:
My point is that most good players win (or lose) the game at higher difficulties between turn 275-325 (with occasional pre-250). They are implementing a number of nice elements that wouldn't begin to appear/open/be available until after turn 325. One can choose not to play effectively and spend quite a bit of time in modern+, which I have done at times (one time just to see what the rage was all about regarding stealth bombers). It seems that a lot of effort is being put into the late game when many games do not even last that much into it (standard speed), particularly late game policies/ideologies. If you are not play cultural, for example, you're lucky if you get most of the policies in Rationalism, let alone that late trees.

I also realize that they are making a number of changes to early-mid game elements, not to mention new civs (which are always cool); so it's not all late game elements. It's just a lot of people are talking about elements (like tenets) that they may not even get to see in a game at higher difficulties (either because you have won effectively or an AI has beaten you).
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They definitely need to slow down the Modern and later tech rate, probably double the beaker value or so. I'd like to see the game last closer to 400 turns or so, and things like Hospitals and Medical Labs being useful buildings to boost population and thus tech rate, rather than stuff you just race past. Slower tech rate would also mean that you are at close to military tech parity with the AI longer and Autocracy could help bridge some of the gap as well (the AI with Kamikaze might be a massive pain in the butt).
 
Buccaneer said:
And they, along with lessor mortals and those playing Challenge games, GOTM and HOF games all do so without gameplay mods.
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Don't get me wrong, I definitely want the vanilla BNW game to be as balanced as possible!

Regarding your earlier concerns, Light Cleric's current deity game has him getting Printing Press/meeting all civs around turn 150, and it's looking like he'll get factories up by turn 200, so I don't think you should worry too much at this point about WC/ideologies not coming into play. (Trade routes and tourism will be around even earlier of course.) It's been a while since I've seen a MadDjinn LP, but those numbers sound about right.
 
Buccaneer said:
My point is that most good players win (or lose) the game at higher difficulties between turn 275-325 (with occasional pre-250). They are implementing a number of nice elements that wouldn't begin to appear/open/be available until after turn 325. One can choose not to play effectively and spend quite a bit of time in modern+, which I have done at times (one time just to see what the rage was all about regarding stealth bombers). It seems that a lot of effort is being put into the late game when many games do not even last that much into it (standard speed), particularly late game policies/ideologies. If you are not play cultural, for example, you're lucky if you get most of the policies in Rationalism, let alone that late trees.

I also realize that they are making a number of changes to early-mid game elements, not to mention new civs (which are always cool); so it's not all late game elements. It's just a lot of people are talking about elements (like tenets) that they may not even get to see in a game at higher difficulties (either because you have won effectively or an AI has beaten you).
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the AI is smart enough right now to win by space race if you didn't win at the right time

But because of this you experience less time in the late game you actualy will only be researching technologies as fast as possible and you will fly through the late era's..

My only concern if they increase the late game if the game becomes easier because the AI will win later as a result you have more time to win ...
 
That's a good point about the consequences of the AI having to win later thus giving you more time. Currently, if you are not rolling over civs or there's not a true runaway, you will likely lose by turn 325 on higher difficulties and unfortunately only by space.

That makes sense about factories by 200.
 
Buccaneer said:
My point is that most good players win (or lose) the game at higher difficulties between turn 275-325 (with occasional pre-250). ...
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Personally I think that you're missing the point of this expansion; which is emphasizing the late game. If you've already decided that you're not going to bother with that and instead solely focus on beating the AI in the most efficient way possible then obviously it's not going to be of as much benefit to you as it would to someone who is happy enough to leave the game play on, even if they could choose to beat the AI at an earlier point. In other words, it might worthwhile remembering that not everyone who plays Civ is interested in the quickest, most efficient, win.

Frankly, against the AI as it is I'm curious why anyone would be interested in that but to each their own.
 
Veneke, you seem to be missing the point that the AI will often win around turn 300, especially on higher difficulties. If you need to play past that to fully access the new features than any game in which you are playing to win will only brush over them.
 
Arachnofiend said:
Veneke, you seem to be missing the point that the AI will often win around turn 300, especially on higher difficulties. If you need to play past that to fully access the new features than any game in which you are playing to win will only brush over them.
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Eh... this could be down to the fact that I play Marathon pretty much exclusively. Where is T300 in terms of Eras?

Typically speaking though I've only seen the AI put up any kind of decent victory attempt around the late Modern to early Atomic eras assuming that it isn't a Pangaea map and that it hasn't decided to just wait around for the Science victory (which is usually its go-to victory condition).
 
T300 could be the Information Era for Hiawatha and the other strong AIs. I've seen him send off a spaceship by 240 on King.

The problem is that once you get to the Industrial techs start moving quickly so if you're doing well in science it's just a hop, skip, and a jump to Apollo.
 
This has become unbearably abstract. It seems those of us who can perceive exploits but enjoy the game without taking them (and consequently find it varied and challenging) will never be able to communicate with those who view absolute competition against game systems as a self-evident imperative.
 
Hahaha. T300 is the Information Era? Wow.

Well in that case we're really debating the wrong thing, aren't we? The problem of the late-game additions having a brief shelf-life has nothing to do with where they come in the game but rather the speed of research on Standard.
 
I don't see how what I'm saying here is so complicated? If it takes 350 turns to fully explore an ideology tree and Hiawatha launches his spaceship in 250 then you didn't even get close to getting to use the new feature and a situation like that would make all the improvements in this expansion for naught. That's all I'm trying to say here.
 
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