SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

Internet translator? Do I write so bad? While I am actually french speaker, I didn't know my written english was so broken. Sure, some posts seem awkward, but this is for the best. Here, I have to speed up to be productive. And yes my english is quite unnatural. Mixing of different types of english words (slang, colloquial, archaic, sometimes literature word), lack of use of phrasal verbs, bad grammar I guess, etc.

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I'm sorry Tachy. I should have been a bit more sensitive. I didn't mean to insult your english. I am just continually surprised by your english. Your use of the english language is unique. I didn't know what else might explain the turns of phrase that you use. Perhaps the late hour for you contributes to the truly unique ways you express yourself.

Surprisely, the internet translator I used for the french phrase you wrote worked quite well. (I assume). I can't really criticize anyone for how they use another language, since I struggle with the only one I know. And as I get older, I seem to substitute the wrong words and forget grammar. To answer your question, it was just curiosity.

bcool said:

And as I get older, I seem to substitute the wrong words and forget grammar.

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You must be older than 26 years old. As Einstein (and many contemporary physicists agreed) said, the apex of a man's work and success is at 26 years old.

Strangely enough, many physicists actually have seen their masterpiece around that age.

Anyways, I am not urged to attain such age. Youth is nice!


Anyways, on a more serious note and this will feed the discussion.
Science aspect was the less wrought (archaic word, always wanted to use that word ) and that post was ignored to my discontentment. Unless it was well-known trick. For sure, from now on, in my future HoF games, I will consider that overflow bonus.

Tachywaxon said:

If we go for Currency first, in hope it isn't a bad choice because losing GLib is too much of a loss, I expect we will use max overflow if possible at the end of Currency as prerequisite techs (math and Alpha) gives a multiplier of *1.4, then the overflow into Literature will retain that multiplier.
Wadda ya think, guyz?

Probably you are right, bcool. The AI will eventually tech it. Nonetheless, we always should has in mind beaker overflow uses multiplier of the last tech obtained and try to abuse it conveniently to gain some free beakers.

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Currency has two pre-requisite techs and and Music one for now. No chance to get a hold on Drama. What would the overflow bonus (40%-20%=net 20% of total beakers) if we maximize the overflow into Music. But delaying currency by one turn on normal speed is quite difficult choice as it opens so much economic power.
In a nutshell, 20 % beaker bonus on overflow vs total trade routes, wealth and earlier begs. I have a penchant towards Currency as fast as possible. Other techs (less powerful) will see the different balances.

While updating my PPP to polished final version, may a brave knight weight the pro and cons. The result may be surprising. IDK qualitatively.

Tachywaxon said:

:suicide: Man!
Only bcool knows what he is doing, that what you meant...
He is the leader. True. And I totally respect that.
He is very good at decision. True. His fast space victories are one indicator of a good long term plans maker.
He has truth. Not necessarily.

You may hate what I am going to say but I feel deep in my heart a sophism called "appeal to authority".

Few are making opposition. bcool, you were aksing why I wanted to produce the PPP alone, well, I somewhat refused to be influenced in order to have different opinion. It was a failure, unfortunately.

I have to admit you often had the end word because I noticed it was more justified and the benefits were more appealing.
It is just the lack of opposition that bugs me...I don't understand.

I may be an idiot, but I want to be an idiot who understands the situation.

There is one thing, though, I wish to excuse, is I don't have much authority to decry anything...I am like 6 months old around here (on CivF). Not counting I was away for 1 month.

EDIT: And yes, I had a terrible day.
EDIT2: Bcool, this post isn't a disrespectly one. I respect you. technically, the amount of work in my PPP is in respect to your goals.
It is the atmosphere I feel...bizarre.

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Kudos, Tachy! Speak your mind! Well said!

You are a great player Tachy! Everyone on the team knows it. They can't doubt it, because you cleaned house with HOF Challenge V! If you feel you are taken for granted, just remind us. Like you just did!

You have great talent, planning and execution for team play as well. Excellent PPP. You have great fire for the game too.

I'm sure bcool will be taking you a little bit more seriously now; not that he really wasn't before.

BTW, Team Captain of a SGOTM Team is responsible for the administration of the team. Nothing more than that. His voice has no more weight than any other team member.

Sun Tzu Wu

Currency has two pre-requisite techs and and Music one for now. No chance to get a hold on Drama. What would the overflow bonus (40%-20%=net 20% of total beakers) if we maximize the overflow into Music. But delaying currency by one turn on normal speed is quite difficult choice as it opens so much economic power.
In a nutshell, 20 % beaker bonus on overflow vs total trade routes, wealth and earlier begs. I have a penchant towards Currency as fast as possible. Other techs (less powerful) will see the different balances.

While updating my PPP to polished final version, may a brave knight weight the pro and cons. The result may be surprising. IDK qualitatively.

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This assumes we get the full overflow of research into the next tech. I suspect, but don't know, that research overflow works in manner similar to hammer overflow. The modifiers on any production using hammers are removed and only the raw hammers are sent on as overflow. I would assume overflow research works in a similar manner.

Currency asap is the best coarse in my opinion even if the research overflow works differently. The extra trade routes, plus the gold from resources trades will add up to 20% of our max research pretty easily. (Not to mention the gold we might get from trades or begs a turn earlier which would likely directly translate into getting the next tech at least 1 turn earlier)

Tachywaxon said:

bcool, I wish to vote or introduce a motion in regards simple updating of a basis and existing test game.
When a basis test game is available like the one produced by mabraham, I think it is up to the one playing the turn-set to update the last test game. I will do the same at the end of my turn-set or sometimes in between in addition if necessary. Nobody is closer and more familiar to its played turn-set than the one who actually played it.

What do you think folks?

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I update this old motion:

Tachywaxon, Shulec and I think mabraham are for that motion.
bcool is against it.

Anyone else?
Still, bcool has the power to use veto vote on that motion.

Tachywaxon said:

I update this old motion:

Tachywaxon, Shulec and I think mabraham are for that motion.
bcool is against it.

Anyone else?
Still, bcool has the power to use veto vote on that motion.

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All I said was I would like to make it a recommendation and it is expected but it is not a requirement. The active player can pass on the task to someone else who is able to take on the task if they specifically ask for help with it.

bcool said:

This assumes we get the full overflow of research into the next tech. I suspect, but don't know, that research overflow works in manner similar to hammer overflow. The modifiers on any production using hammers are removed and only the raw hammers are sent on as overflow. I would assume overflow research works in a similar manner.

Currency asap is the best coarse in my opinion even if the research overflow works differently. The extra trade routes, plus the gold from resources trades will add up to 20% of our max research pretty easily. (Not to mention the gold we might get from trades or begs a turn earlier which would likely directly translate into getting the next tech at least 1 turn earlier)

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Well, that trick is not about shaving a turn on a tech, but to gain free beakers out of a "broken" mechanism that makes no sense. This a long term bonus, not a ultra short bonus. It is not like Music one turn earlier will make huge difference, unless GAge is pressing affair. Unless the race for Music is tight, still, the 20% may have a surprising outcome.
Moreover, begging gold one turn earlier doesn't worth more gold in the absolute than one turn later. It is not like we are begging at every four turns.
Only trade routes are bugging me. I think calculus is a must. Like the one I did for GLib (that avered slightly wrong because rep citizens bring 3 beakers each, not 4.).


Here is the article (thanks mabraham to lead me towards an article that led me to an unexpected discovery). Make research the word "Overflow" to hasten the read.

bcool said:

This assumes we get the full overflow of research into the next tech. I suspect, but don't know, that research overflow works in manner similar to hammer overflow. The modifiers on any production using hammers are removed and only the raw hammers are sent on as overflow. I would assume overflow research works in a similar manner.

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Tachy is correct on this point (or at least was correct).

An article I read some time ago on research mechanics (in the Civ IV war academy) was clear that bonuses from one technology applied to the overflow into the next technology, even though the second technology may have fewer research bonuses. Its an old research micromanagement trick that is worth pursuing, if it hasn't been patched away.

Sun Tzu Wu

Tachywaxon said:

Here is the article (thanks mabraham to lead me towards an article that led me to an unexpected discovery). Make research the word "Overflow" to hasten the read.

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Yes, this is the same Civ IV War Academy article I read a few years ago. I just checked the associated strategy article, but the few newer posts there neither confirm or deny that research overflow still works as described in the article. I suspect that it still works, since the effect is not obvious and would require careful measurement to confirm. I'm convinced it still works as described in the article, since Firaxis probably wasn't even aware of this research effect and even if they did, there would be no reason spend money to fix it, unlike some other issue that a significant number of players were complaining about.

EDIT: Please read the Repercussions section of the article, especially #4. The research overflow bonus can be manipulated to generate a hefty bonus of 1/2 to over 1 full turn, if it meets certain conditions.

Sun Tzu Wu

^
Hey STW,
what do you think about the motion?
Abstain?

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Also, shame only writing has a whooping 60 % discount. And we missed the abuse.
Still, a test game is necessary to verify the very survival of that old micromanagement trick.
Don't have time...I mean me.

Tachywaxon said:

^
Hey STW,
what do you think about the motion?
Abstain?

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Of course you are right that the best person to update the test game should be the player that played the corresponding turn set. There can be no question about that.

However, if that person is not able to update the test game in a timely manner, it should be ok for another player who is also _not_ up (preparing a PPP) to perform that task instead.

Good luck with your turn set!

Sun Tzu Wu

Okay, a hastened a test game in regards of Washington growth and once again I find that f*cked up loss of . Instead of 20/38 as calculated, I obstinately obtain 19/38 . (Look into my PPP, section Washington's micro, a small note in red. )

I mean, at T110, we have in stock 28/36 . Additioning 9 means 37/36, thus a surplus of 1 .
Next turn, The stock is 19/38. It should be instead :

(38/2)+1(OF)=20 .

I provide test games to support my idea.

Tachywaxon said:

Okay, a hastened a test game in regards of Washington growth and once again I find that f*cked up loss of . Instead of 20/38 as calculated, I obstinately obtain 19/38 . (Look into my PPP, section Washington's micro, a small note in red. )

I mean, at T110, we have in stock 28/36 . Additioning 9 means 37/36, thus a surplus of 1 .
Next turn, The stock is 19/38. It should be instead :

(38/2)+1(OF)=20 .

I provide test games to support my idea.

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I don't know why this is significant. I wouldn't have thought the food micro in Washington growing on cottages was particularly important this set.

Okay, a hastened a test game in regards of Washington growth and once again I find that f*cked up loss of . Instead of 20/38 as calculated, I obstinately obtain 19/38 . (Look into my PPP, section Washington's micro, a small note in red. )

I mean, at T110, we have in stock 28/36 . Additioning 9 means 37/36, thus a surplus of 1 .
Next turn, The stock is 19/38. It should be instead :

(38/2)+1(OF)=20 .

I provide test games to support my idea.

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The granary stores 1/2 food of the old food bin max not the new one. So in your example

at T110, we have in stock 28/36 . Additioning 9 means 37/36, thus a surplus of 1 .
Next turn, The stock is 19/38.

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This is exactly right. 1/2 of 36 is 18 plus 1 overflow food gives us 19/38 food the next turn.

Tachywaxon said:

Well, that trick is not about shaving a turn on a tech, but to gain free beakers out of a "broken" mechanism that makes no sense. This a long term bonus, not a ultra short bonus. It is not like Music one turn earlier will make huge difference, unless GAge is pressing affair. Unless the race for Music is tight, still, the 20% may have a surprising outcome.
Moreover, begging gold one turn earlier doesn't worth more gold in the absolute than one turn later. It is not like we are begging at every four turns.
Only trade routes are bugging me. I think calculus is a must. Like the one I did for GLib (that avered slightly wrong because rep citizens bring 3 beakers each, not 4.).


Here is the article (thanks mabraham to lead me towards an article that led me to an unexpected discovery). Make research the word "Overflow" to hasten the read.

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Okay great I never realized this is how research overflow works... I will attempt to do a calculation...

We will have 8 cities when we get currency, so we will get 8 new trade routes assuming we get 2 2 commerce routes and 6 1 commerce so currency 1 turn earlier gets about 10 commerce more than we would get. 10 commerce *1.12 (since half our cities have libraries) * 1.2 (minimum research bonus for having 1 prerequisite) = 13.4 more research.

Also if we assume that we can trade resources for gold from the AI perhaps 10 gold is a reasonable guess since some will have gold and others won't. So 10 gold per turn a turn earlier. So 10 gold we wouldn't get without currency a turn earlier. So that is another 13.4 research. (since gold is at least as valuable as commerce since it lets us deficit spend earlier)

So currency a turn earlier is about worth about 26-27 research

The research overflow...
our max research is 127 so if we get 126 overflow then...

126 * 1.4 *1.066 (since eastern witches will know currency by the time we finish the research) = 188 research devoted to music or whatever is next
we ordinarily would only get 126 * 1.2 or 151 research if we didn't do the overflow trick.
a difference of 37 research.

It seems the trick is better. However this assumes that we only lose 1 turn on getting currency. It might be difficult to get within 1 research of finishing currency and then have enough gold to run at 100% research to max the overflow into music. If this delays currency 2 turns then I think it is clear that currency 2 turns earlier is better than maxing the research.

The calculation also depends on how valuable our 2nd trade routes are and how much gold we can trade for. I think I made reasonable guesses, but I could be off (low or high).

I think there is value in getting a beg a turn earlier. Perhaps not as high as I thought, but there is value. Since you can beg about every 25 turns then the value of begging a turn earlier is about 1/25 of the gold you could get by begging.

If we can get 50 gold in begging, begging a turn earlier is worth about 2 gold.

Getting currency a turn earlier also lets us trade it for perhaps calendar a turn earlier (unlikely we will be able to trade for it, but maybe) (and would perhaps get us some spare gold as well). Calendar a turn earlier might be significant since we could improve the spice perhaps instead of a cottage for the capital. That is maybe 2? commerce and 1 hammer? difference a turn earlier and perhaps the happiness would be significant or at the very least it is another resource to trade away.

And Tachy why are you staying up so late if you have a long day today and might play tonight

bcool said:

The granary stores 1/2 food of the old food bin max not the new one.

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More specifically, the granary stores half the food for the old bin size rounded down - so Quick and Epic are a bit harder, because they have food bins that have sizes that are not even.

I will admit that I almost never build walls. Walls are 50 hammers, 25 with stone. An archer is 25 hammers. If Mansa is headed for us, he will surely have catapults. If we have a wall in place, he will be an idiot and bombard us for several turns while we whip a garrison full of troops.

We don't have to build the wall now, but if we see him coming, this is a must. We really need some intel on his potetial stack. I bet they are 20 turns away, so no hurry. If we go into Caste System before we know his war target, we need a wall for the insurance turns.

bcool said:

The granary stores 1/2 food of the old food bin max not the new one. So in your example
This is exactly right. 1/2 of 36 is 18 plus 1 overflow food gives us 19/38 food the next turn.

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*Facepalm while my fingers are peeling my skin*

That makes sense.

But as I tried that way of thinking at another growth moment in Washington, I get nonsense.

T108: (28/34 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 2*Cottages, 2*lake tiles ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, Spy (10/40)
T109: (19/36 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 3*Cottages, 2*lake tiles ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, Spy (15/40) [8th POP]

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So if I follow the rule of thumb you said:

28/34+9/34=37/34 ==> 3 OF :Food:
Granary bonus: ½(34)=17 ==> (17+3)/36 = 21/36 disrupting with real value up there: 19/36 .

Why on earth am I a nonsense.

mabraham said:

I don't know why this is significant. I wouldn't have thought the food micro in Washington growing on cottages was particularly important this set.

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I have no idea of what you are talking about.
Micro isn't significant; are you sure you are mabraham?
To me, losing a food is significant as it is the least abunding resource.
But likely I am not choosing well my fights.

Tachywaxon said:

I have no idea of what you are talking about.
Micro isn't significant; are you sure you are mabraham?
To me, losing a food is significant as it is the least abunding resource.
But likely I am not choosing well my fights.

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We're not "losing" food. This is trouble reconciling a model with reality. Usually that means that the input data or the structure of the model is wrong. Neither of those are a serious problem for the plan in Washington, which is to grow fast while working as many grassland cottages as are available. That doesn't require much/any further detail in the plan, or an accurate model.

We have limited time and the ability of multiple people to follow lots of separate threads of discussion is also limited. I think we need to keep in mind the need to prioritise well and keep focus.