Tech Tree Discussion

Vokarya · Nov 14, 2012

I plan on continuing my rearranging schemes for the Industrial and later eras, but I'm only rearranging what already is there; only costs will be really changed. I think we can add new techs, but we need to go CAREFULLY. I don't want anyone proposing a bunch of technologies at once.

Hydromancerx · Nov 14, 2012

ls612 said:
We've done this twice now in the past six months, I don't really want to go through that again.

yeah I agree. However new ideas are always welcome since its much easier to add on than it is to redo everything.

In fact I have been wanting to separate Telegraph into 2 techs "Telegraph" and "Telephone" however I have no idea where "Telephone" would fit in.

Nimek · Nov 15, 2012

@hydro

I think the same

Smoke signals (maybe this should be first?) -Animal messenger - Messenger office -Telegraph - telephone - cell phone - smart phone

Buildings chain represents way that people try to comunicate each other for distance.
First they train animals and send messages via them then they use animal riders and so one

Faustmouse · Nov 15, 2012

Koshling said:
Although I have some sympathy for this point of view, I don't think we can keep scaling up the GP power, because the rate at which you generate GPs tends to accelerate too - it's no very hard to be getting one very 4 or 5 turns by early industrial, so if each gives a full tech they becomes a little OP IMO.

Maybe a whole tech is a bit much than of course. But one turn, or later less than one turn is just ridiculous and absolutely not worth it.
Maybe, I Vokarya get's his Tags for the Westminster Abby, you could also have some buildings (maybe only NW and WW?) that increase the amount of Science that one GP produce to scale it a bit with the generell science output?

Koshling · Nov 15, 2012

Faustmouse said:
Maybe a whole tech is a bit much than of course. But one turn, or later less than one turn is just ridiculous and absolutely not worth it.
Maybe, I Vokarya get's his Tags for the Westminster Abby, you could also have some buildings (maybe only NW and WW?) that increase the amount of Science that one GP produce to scale it a bit with the generell science output?

Things that scale super-specialists seems to me to be a good way to go for later-game GPs. It would also be good to try to find some way to address the disparity in usefulness between the different types. I find the Great Scientists are essentially always useful (I just use them to found academies in whatever is my highest science output city that doesn't yet have one), but all the others get progressively less useful later in the game. An equivalent of the science academy for each would be nice (but maybe needs tuning down a little- that goes for the science one too).

ls612 · Nov 15, 2012

Shouldn't we change the GPs to have strength throughout the game and then make them come far less frequently in the later game? I know that for every one you get it takes longer to get the next one, where is that time determined? XML or in the DLL?

Edit:

Duh, there is a stupider answer for this. In the GameSpeedInfos, there are the following tags commented

Code:

    iUnitDiscoverPercent = Amount of beakers produced by great people when used to rush a technology. Normal is 100
    iUnitGreatWorkPercent = Amount or culture produced by great artists' great work ability. Normal is 100
    iUnitHurryPercent = Amount of gold or population needed to hurry unit production. Normal is 100
    iUnitTradePercent = Amount of gold produced by great merchants' trade mission ability. Normal is 100

Which are not used at all. Using those appropriately would help the situation I suspect.

Vokarya · Nov 28, 2012

Over in the Units thread when we discussed the Dragoon and Cuirassier, I noticed that some of our columns in the Renaissance Era contain techs that are historically widely separated. For example, our first column (X42) contains Gunpowder (a known tech by 1350), Oil Painting (Jan van Eyck is painting in 1425), Astronomy (Copernicus publishes in 1543), and Calculus (which isn't published until 1684). To me, this is a problem.

I would like to do a revamp of the Renaissance Era so that the technologies fit the historical flow a little better; this will involve some swapping of techs and some changes to prerequisites.

What I would like to start with is dividing the Renaissance techs into four groups, based on when they were first created:

Early Renaissance (before 1600)
Middle Renaissance (1600-1700)
Late Renaissance (1700-1800)
Techs that need to moved to the Industrial Era (post-1800)

This is the list of techs that I think make up the Early Renaissance. Feel free to correct me if I have anything wrong or if you think there is an event that fits better

What do you think of this?

strategyonly · Nov 28, 2012

Vokarya said:
To me, this is a problem.

I would like to do a revamp of the Renaissance Era so that the technologies fit the historical flow a little better; this will involve some swapping of techs and some changes to prerequisites.

What I would like to start with is dividing the Renaissance techs into four groups, based on when they were first created:

Early Renaissance (before 1600)

Middle Renaissance (1600-1700)

Late Renaissance (1700-1800)

Techs that need to moved to the Industrial Era (post-1800)

What do you think of this?

Now this looks like a VERY well thought out plan, and the main thing, easy to read, nice touch!!

Vokarya · Nov 28, 2012

strategyonly said:
Now this looks like a VERY well thought out plan, and the main thing, easy to read, nice touch!!

Thanks. The difficulty will be converting this to a new tree of prerequisites; I'm willing to be flexible here, but I want to explain exactly what I'm doing and why, and find out if there is anything I missed along the way. This is going to take more than a few posts, because I don't want to commit any of this until it is complete, and I think we will have to re-balance unit strengths and re-assign special features along the way.

I love tables, by the way. I think they make it so easy to organize information. I almost never use a word processor at home; I prefer Notepad2 for general text and LibreOffice spreadsheets for anything more complicated.

Dancing Hoskuld · Nov 28, 2012

As I understood it the technology Metallurgy is more about casting cannon barrels not cannon balls. (Some early cannons were made of "staves" of iron bound together with barrel hoops.)

Vokarya · Nov 28, 2012

Dancing Hoskuld said:
As I understood it the technology Metallurgy is more about casting cannon barrels not cannon balls. (Some early cannons were made of "staves" of iron bound together with barrel hoops.)

I do know that about how early cannon was made. I was just looking for a date to place Metallurgy. Do you have an actual date in mind? The Civilopedia text that we have says "14th century", which is about where I am putting it. Also, the blast furnace arrives in Europe around the 13th-15th century. I'm actually not planning on changing the tech prerequisites of Metallurgy at all, but I want something to justify why I'm leaving it unchanged.

Hydromancerx · Nov 29, 2012

@Vokarya

Looks promising. I look forward to seeing your tweaks to tech requirements just as much as tech placement.

ls612 · Nov 29, 2012

@Vokarya:

Great work there! I like your knowledge of history and your application of it to this area, I'm a bit of a history nut personally. I look forward to seeing parts 2 and 3 of the Renaissance Era, your ideas are always well thought out. :goodjob:

CIVPlayer8 · Nov 29, 2012

ls612 said:
I'm a bit of a history nut personally.

Isn't everyone who plays Civilization?

strategyonly · Nov 29, 2012

CIVPlayer8 said:
Isn't everyone who plays Civilization?

Not me man, its kinda gnarly, i like riding those waves, dude! Hey wait man, where am i? [pimp]

Must be those darn poppy seeds again :crazyeye:

CIVPlayer8 · Nov 29, 2012

strategyonly said:
Not me man, its kinda gnarly, i like riding those waves, dude! Hey wait man, where am i? Must be those darn poppy seeds again

How's surfing in Minnesota? Catch some good ones up there?

Hydromancerx · Nov 30, 2012

strategyonly said:
Not me man, its kinda gnarly, i like riding those waves, dude! Hey wait man, where am i? Must be those darn poppy seeds again

Us Califonians are not amused, don't ya know.

Vokarya · Nov 30, 2012

Here is the second part of my Renaissance revamping. These are techs that historically date to between 1601 and 1700. This will form the middle of the Renaissance.

Mine Warfare is probably the single hardest technology to place in this area, and the hardest part is judging its relationship to Explosives. I find Explosives just a little hard to understand because, on the purely chemical front, there aren't any new explosives between Gunpowder and Nitroglycerin, so I am guessing that Explosives is referring to advances with gunpowder to make it more effective than the early Renaissance gunpowder that is the Gunpowder technology. I'm not saying we should change it, just that it's a bit of a stumbling block.

Please feel free to offer corrections and if you think there is a more appropriate date for a given technology.

Vokarya · Dec 2, 2012

Since no one had anything to say about the middle Renaissance, I'm going to go ahead and post the late Renaissance. These are technologies that make their appearance after 1700.

There are two difficulties here: first is separating Biology, Botany, and Zoology, since it's very hard to tell when these become distinct sciences. I like the idea of having them as separate technologies, but I ran into some trouble telling them apart. Second is having Constitution, Representative Democracy, and Nationalism very close together. I'll listen to suggestions for how to pull them a little apart.

Kicked Upstairs: New Industrial Techs
There are also seven technologies that I think need to be sent from the Renaissance to the Industrial Era. One is because of the technological path; the others are all things that come into prominence after 1800, which is really where I believe the Industrial Era should start.

The next post will have a map of the new Renaissance Era and a list of the new prerequisite requirements.

ls612 · Dec 2, 2012

Vokarya said:
Since no one had anything to say about the middle Renaissance, I'm going to go ahead and post the late Renaissance. These are technologies that make their appearance after 1700.

Date|Tech|Event
1735| Biology |Linneaus publishes Systema Naturae and establishes Linnean taxonomy
1735| Zoology |Linnean taxonomy established
1751| Geology |Name introduced in the Encyclopédie
1753| Botany |Linneaus publishes Species Plantarum
1756| Rifling |Seven Years' War introduces rifle sharpshooters
1757| Sextant |First sextant made
1765| Replaceable Parts | Système Gribeauval standardizes artillery production
1764| Archeology |Johann Joachim Winckelmann publishes The History of Ancient Art
1776| Economics |Adam Smith publishes Wealth of Nations
1783| Hot Air Balloon |Montgolfier brothers flight
1783| Emancipation |Quakers found first British abolitionist society
1787| Constitution |United States Constitution ratified
1787| Representative Democracy |United States government established
1792| Nationalism |French Revolution
1800| Grand War |Napoleonic Wars
1800| Military Tradition |Napoleonic Wars

There are two difficulties here: first is separating Biology, Botany, and Zoology, since it's very hard to tell when these become distinct sciences. I like the idea of having them as separate technologies, but I ran into some trouble telling them apart. Second is having Constitution, Representative Democracy, and Nationalism very close together. I'll listen to suggestions for how to pull them a little apart.

Kicked Upstairs: New Industrial Techs
There are also seven technologies that I think need to be sent from the Renaissance to the Industrial Era. One is because of the technological path; the others are all things that come into prominence after 1800, which is really where I believe the Industrial Era should start.

Date|Tech|Event
1792| Gas Lighting |First lighting of a house; used coal gas, so I think this needs to come after Steam Power
1817| Paleontology |Georges Cuvier publishes The Animal Kingdom
1818| Bicycles |Velocipede patented
1830| Mormon |Joseph Smith publishes Book of Mormon
1837| Meteorology |Telegraph allows coordination of weather information
1841| Marine Biology |Edward Forbes explores the Aegean and founds marine ecology
1872| Wildlife Conservation |Yellowstone National Park established

The next post will have a map of the new Renaissance Era and a list of the new prerequisite requirements.

Grand War and Military Tradition could probably be pushed back to the early 1700s (War of Spanish Succession), or at the latest to 1745 and the War of Austrian Succession. Other than that I like this, including the ones getting added to the Industrial Era.

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