The benefits of avoiding bronze working

vranasm said:

This shouldn't be here yet. It's largely unfinished without any kind of maps/saves

Click to expand...

This is not the place for specific maps and saves. I believe those go in the "Civ4 Strategy & Tips forum".

vranasm said:

The definition of "delay" is very vague too. You're citing what some GP's can bulb if you don't know BW, but how it correlates with the approach?

Click to expand...

It needs to be vague, since the specifics of when you should get Bronze Working will vary depending on the map and the situation. It would be unwise to advocate for one specific tech path/order/end goal. The article acknowledges that Bronze Working is great for some maps and should be researched early. The deepest tech bulb that delaying Bronze Working opens up more efficiently is Liberalism. The article is merely to highlight some of the strategic opportunities that can be opened up by delaying Bronze Working. Prioritizing one of them needs to make sense in your specific situation.

vranasm said:

The only BW avoid I do regularly if the situation calls for is to secure commerce like Pottery/Writing depending on start. But no way I would wait with BW until T 120 like the Mids->GE strategy would suggest.

Click to expand...

That's why this article has value. Most players are like you, and aren't aware of the opportunities that are opened up by sometimes delaying Bronze Working. They only see the benefits of Bronze Working without calculating the costs. Feel free to ignore the article and continue with your "Bronze Working Early Every Map" approach if you like. You won't be alone.

vranasm said:

I don't like when magically we switched for couple of last posts into quick speed. The case should be DEFINED PRECISELY THEN.

Click to expand...

I only play normal speed. People familiar with other speeds can feel free to comment on how different speeds might affect the dynamics of delaying Bronze Working. If you don't like some people commenting about Quick speed, that's on you. Don't know why you fashion yourself as someone who needs to be pleased by every comment that is made.

Nick Carpathia said:

I could see delaying BW a few dozen turns becoming useful in some cases, but delaying it until Liberalism? Maybe I'm underestimating the tech pace of Diety games, but it sounds absurd. I could have built a half dozen more workers or settlers using BW (all of whom will snowball and pay back the investment beyond that of a mere 20-30 hammers), or entire wonders, using BW. It's not like other things have better opportunity costs.

Click to expand...

It depends on the map. Without much food or forests, you won't be doing much of anything with Bronze Working. The article doesn't say that delaying Bronze Working is good for all maps, or even a majority of them. It says it is good for some maps (with my estimate being ~30%). As Sun Tzu Wu (a hall of famer) has pointed out, even if it is only 5% of maps it is still quite helpful. Not every strategy article needs to apply to all or most maps. Leader specific articles are applicable to <2% of games. I play on Immortal and have played quite a few maps more effectively by delaying Bronze Working than by getting it early.

Revent said:

I've been reading all of the posts here. I have to say Brennus, I honestly don't think your strategy is viable on almost all maps. On difficulties like Immortal and Deity, not researching BW means you are probably going to get boxed in (more so than normal).

Click to expand...

I play on Immortal with Fractal/random terrain/random sea levels and use it quite effectively. I think most people assume you'll get boxed in on Deity early because they are playing on Pangaea maps with AIs all around them and few choke points. The popular technique in that situation has become to chop/whip settlers after size 3. That may be the best strategy for some maps, and that's fine. But on other maps the alternatives include: 1) instead of rushing your second settler to the closest Bronze resource, position that city in a strategic location to culturally block off a lot of land. Build the settler before turn 3 if need be. If you need a significant amount of culture in the second city to make it an effective block, found a religion and it will automatically be founded in the second city to allow for a quick culture boom; 2) low sea level maps have a lot more terrain and you are not necessarily in quite the same rush to claim land, 3) high sea level maps have a lot more strategic choke points that can be culturally blocked off; 4) isolated starts mean not being boxed in.

I'll be posting a delayed-Bronze Working map and save soon. It was the second map I rolled specifically trying to find one (they are more common than people think). I am playing through it now and did delay Bronze Working until after the Liberalism bulb.

Revent said:

However, this strategy COULD be a lot more powerful in multiplayer depending on how early you can get it. Longbows will be pretty awesome if you can get them very early and will protect you from a lot of hassle I'd imagine.

Click to expand...

Multiplayer changes the game in a lot of ways. But my decision to go for Bronze Working or not usually depends on the map, who my neighbors are (how aggressive they are and what units they have), and what tech in the tech tree am I really trying to get to as fast and efficiently as I can, not necessarily whether its single-player or multiplayer. Humans do shoot for Liberalism much more than the AI, so if you want to be the first there in a mutiplayer game, you'll likely need to pull out all the stops, one of which is a Liberalism bulb which delaying Bronze Working helps facilitate more efficiently.

Revent said:

Edit: I'd also like to see an example of this as well. How early can you get Feud?

Click to expand...

You can be the first civ to it. Exact turn will depend on how fast you are able to build the Pyramids and generate the Great Engineer. Industrious and Philosophical leaders are thus quicker.

Revent said:

What will you actually do with it?

Click to expand...

Will switch to Vassalage and Serfdom. Will use the Longbows for defense or a choke. Will usually continue up towards one of the two techs that are opened up by Feudalism. One is non-Bronze Working (Civil Service), the other is not (Guilds). But, of course, this is only one tech bulb that is opened up by delaying Bronze Working, and it specifically requires stone.

Revent said:

What if you are on continents? You mention opening up the path to CS, but ideally, you want to get Astro ASAP on those maps to see how advanced the other continent is. Trade routes and tech trading with the other continent will help a lot more than early Feud. Astro requires Calendar, Optics, Compass, IW (thus requiring BW)

Click to expand...

If you want to get to Astronomy first, I would not advocate delaying Bronze Working. I would advocate some sort of Astronomy bulb strategy, which is not facilitated by delaying Bronze Working. If you wanted to Lib Astronomy then you can trade for Calendar and Optics rather easily after partially bulbing Liberalism, but I am not necessarily advocating this as being more efficient than just bulbing Astronomy and ignoring Liberalism.

vranasm said:

...
I don't like when magically we switched for couple of last posts into quick speed. The case should be DEFINED PRECISELY THEN.

We compare Standard/Normal speed strategy or Huge/Marathon or Small/Quick?
What is the case here?
...

Click to expand...

I was the one that added comments about Quick speed, since I was playing a Deity Quick speed game at the time, where I was able to apply the Great Scientist bulbing strategy detailed in the OP's original post #1 with good effect. I play all game speeds (and Map Sizes) and encourage others to do so as well.

Ideally, each of the four game speeds should be compared, since some game elements are scaled, others are not scaled (Per # of turns Diplomancy bonuses and unit movement are prime examples) and even if everything were perfectly scaled, they would still be effected by the turn quantum effect, where for example, an Epic speed whip will (often) be more efficient than Normal speed which in turn is more efficient than Quick speed based on a higher percentage of Hammers from whipping versus Hammers from working plots, specialists and building static (non-percentage; i.e TAP hammer bonus) bonuses.

Likewise each Map Size should be compared too, because the beaker sizes of the same technology change dramatically from Duel to Huge and the Great Person bulb output only scales with Total Population beyond the intial bulb bonus of 1000B for GP/GM/GA/GE and 1500B for GS, Normal speed; it does not scale with Map Size per se.

Thus, all combinations of four game speeds and six map sizes (24 cases) should be compared (BW strategy versus delayed-BW strategy on low food/low forest maps), but who has the time to do all that?

Sun Tzu Wu

Tachywaxon said:

I still think you have a temper. I don't see what's the problem with it. Htadus called me Tackywaxon. I know I am extremely short-tempered. I agree with that.

Click to expand...

Here i was reading this interesting discussion and find this. Tachywaxon, it was not at all intentional. I did not even know I did that. I do sincerely appologize for that.


As for the subject of delaying BW. I for one who rarely use the whip but uses the BW tech path and the chops, find the stratergy still questionable. The proof is in the pudding, they say, so it would be nice to see an example (Since i am late to this party, I hope I did not miss a demo already).

The validity of the OP's statement can be proven if delaying BW can get a player to a stated objective (a victory) faster than any tried and true path. I am willing to participate in "con" side of a pro/con assesment.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

I was the one that added comments about Quick speed, since I was playing a Deity Quick speed game at the time, where I was able to apply the Great Scientist bulbing strategy detailed in the OP's original post #1 with good effect. I play all game speeds (and Map Sizes) and encourage others to do so as well.

Ideally, each of the four game speeds should be compared, since some game elements are scaled, others are not scaled (Per # of turns Diplomancy bonuses and unit movement are prime examples) and even if everything were perfectly scaled, they would still be effected by the turn quantum effect, where for example, an Epic speed whip will (often) be more efficient than Normal speed which in turn is more efficient than Quick speed based on a higher percentage of Hammers from whipping versus Hammers from working plots, specialists and building static (non-percentage; i.e TAP hammer bonus) bonuses.

Likewise each Map Size should be compared too, because the beaker sizes of the same technology change dramatically from Duel to Huge and the Great Person bulb output only scales with Total Population beyond the intial bulb bonus of 1000B for GP/GM/GA/GE and 1500B for GS, Normal speed; it does not scale with Map Size per se.

Thus, all combinations of four game speeds and six map sizes (24 cases) should be compared (BW strategy versus delayed-BW strategy on low food/low forest maps), but who has the time to do all that?

Sun Tzu Wu

Click to expand...

the problem here is that there are basically 3 difficulty levels on the same map

1) Quick speed
2) normal/epic speed
3) marathon speed

for each speed the overall strategy is very different thus we normally aim the teachings for normal speed as basic reference.

I think you're fully aware why it's that I consider 3 difficulty levels and i won't repeat something well known.

Brennus.Quigley said:

This is not the place for specific maps and saves. I believe those go in the "Civ4 Strategy & Tips forum".

Click to expand...

You're wrong.

1) check the Horse archer rush guide by vicawoo and return stating that maps don't have place here
2) you really really have to post at least couple of screenshots of starts where would you delay BW and state WHY as study cases. That's what people want to read here!

All I hear from you is just lot of blabla and no actual basis for your statements.

i start to view this as borderline trolling and actually thought already couple of times to just report this thread to be taken away...

you MISLEAD a lot of players which are refered to strategy articles as source for valid strategies and you're making WRONG picture without stating your basis correctly.

I don't want to meet in S&T section some new player playing Noble difficulty stating they can't outexpand AI and when he posts save we will see that he doesn't tech BW because he read it here since it's the most actual strategy article.

vranasm said:

1) check the Horse archer rush guide by vicawoo and return stating that maps don't have place here
2) you really really have to post at least couple of screenshots of starts where would you delay BW and state WHY as study cases. That's what people want to read here!

Click to expand...

I will be posting a 4000BC save for people, once I'm done playing it. I think it is up to the writer of the article whether they want to use screenshots or not. I could spend my day rolling and taking screenshots of maps that no one will ever play or test, but then I don't really consider you to be the boss of the Strategy and Articles section. Write your own strategy article and do whatever you like.

vranasm said:

All I hear from you is just lot of blabla and no actual basis for your statements.

Click to expand...

I feel the same way about your posts.

vranasm said:

i start to view this as borderline trolling and actually thought already couple of times to just report this thread to be taken away...

Click to expand...

Go for it.

vranasm said:

you MISLEAD a lot of players which are refered to strategy articles as source for valid strategies and you're making WRONG picture without stating your basis correctly.

Click to expand...

You mislead a lot of players by telling them to go Bronze Working early on ALL maps. I correctly advise players to go Bronze Working whenever it makes strategic sense for them, understanding what alternative bulb opportunities they may be passing up.

There's a misunderstanding here
Nobody tells anyone to always go BW quick. Maybe you think that cos it's very important on almost all maps.
So...nobody is misleading. Brennus clearly states it's only a rare option, and if we disagree we should focus on his strategy, not his influences.
And other way round, Brennus shouldn't always mention how we mislead into BW = always.

Moderator Action: There are a lot of personal barbs being swapped here instead of discussion of the strategy in question. Please stick to a discussion of the strategy and drop all the personal stuff and name calling or this thread will be closed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

As I posted a while back the best argument is evidence.

@Brennus. You've got a game you're playing at the moment. You could open a thread in S&T with the starting save for other people to play. Just don't read the thread until you've finished playing.

Nick Carpathia said:

I could see delaying BW a few dozen turns becoming useful in some cases, but delaying it until Liberalism? Maybe I'm underestimating the tech pace of Diety games, but it sounds absurd. I could have built a half dozen more workers or settlers using BW (all of whom will snowball and pay back the investment beyond that of a mere 20-30 hammers), or entire wonders, using BW. It's not like other things have better opportunity costs.

Click to expand...

This is one of the best sum-ups in this thread imo.

The argument is sound, BW can be delayed. But the magnitude of the delayment proposed in this thread is just so outrageously absurd, that all that I am screams skepticism.

The only time I typically delay BW is if I need to get a Library up ASAP because I plan on an extremely early Catapult war. In these types of cases, especially in low commerce starts, AND if there are some available hills to mine then running 2scientist after your 1st settler is out lets you bulb math very early>more production>early construction.

So yea, getting BW after writing does slow down your initial expansion but if you plan on an amazingly fast 3 city Catapult war then I can argue for it.

Interesting article. I am surprised at how much arguing is coming against it.
Here is a short list of things I consider as true about this matter:

- BW early (or even as your first tech) is very often the best path.

- It is quite normal to delay BW a dozen turns to get other things first. For example, you can go for AH before BW depending on the available resources. This is not Speed dependent or difficulty dependent.
So often it is good to delay BW a dozen turns.

- Sometimes it is good to delay BW some 60 turns. The idea is to beeline Alphabet and get BW (and other things) for free through tech trading. I do this ofter in my Cultural Deity games, maybe 25% of the games. I don't do it with lots of food. I don't do it without enough space for peacefully settling 6 cities. But still I do it with some frequency.
Another example of situation where it is normal to delay BW beyond turn 60 is when you are struggling to get a CS sling completed.
So sometimes it is good to delay BW some 60 turns.

- It is hard for me to imagine a situation where I would want to delay getting BW beyond the point of getting Alphabet. There might exist some, though. I just happen to never have come across to any.

jesusin said:

Interesting article.
...
- It is hard for me to imagine a situation where I would want to delay getting BW beyond the point of getting Alphabet. There might exist some, though. I just happen to never have come across to any.

Click to expand...

Most players of this site either play HoF games or xOTM. In the case of HoF games, a start that would benefit from delayed Bronze Working would be low food and low forests, thus it wouldn't be very good for HoF submissions. xOTM always start with the same start for all players and that start is rarely low food, low forests and high difficulty level. Therefore, the reason very few players see any need for delayed Bronze Working strategy is they would rarely be in need of such a strategy. Meaning they pass on playing such starts, since the typical Bronze Working strategies offer little to no benefits on such starts. Indeed, some players are so ingrained in habitually researching Bronze Working early that they can't see that some starts simply don't sufficiently benefit from it. I would say that for them, such starts do not even exist. jesusin, please reconsider your statement above; I suspect that you haven't ever found maps where a delayed Bronze Working strategy would work well as described by this article, because you never actively looked for them or didn't recognize them.

Sun Tzu Wu

the biggest problem with this article is that OP didn't define any kind of frame for the BW to be delayed.

I think a lot of people know that sometimes you delay BW until you get Writing for example, never heard about delaying until Alpha, but well maybe it works.

The OP in the opposite suggests by defining things that great person can bulb without knowing BW that you have to delay BW until you get such great person.

and I already gave some example with GE bulb meaning you would delay BW until typically T120. I can't imagine to be worthwhile to delay BW (and obviously IW) until 100 AD...like never.

With GM you run into very similar problem with the timing of first GP, but you maybe can oracle CoL and run couple of merchants with caste? who knows... the strategy article basically lacks the "strategy" aspect, I don't see here any strategy, just stating bulb paths when you don't know BW.

That doesn't form good strategy article and that's why I was so strongly arguing against this to be even here.

edit:
for example... let's take the Machinery/Engineering bulb strategy and how it evolved...

First someone looked at the GS bulb path and realized that if you don't have fishing the GS will bulb along the lines of Math, Alpha, Aesth, Metal Casting, Machinery, Engineering.

Second he then started to form a strategy around the realization.
Third someone posted a video about the strategy and how it works.
Fourth someone posted a very spectacular deity game with finish at 1190 AD employing this strategy.

Which all formed another good strategy path for leaders not starting with Fishing.
And yet (which is a bit sad) no one posted such Strategy Article here...

On the other hand I got article on the First step level. But where are the rest ones, which would establish at least some of the "new" bulb paths as valid strategy?

I agree. This article really needs screenshots / sample maps / sample games to help the readers identify the situations the OP is talking about.
I'm a bit sceptical about the engineer bulb path: your early-mid game GE pool is limited to Mids + HG + HS + forge engineer (depending on how many wonders you get / can afford to build) while your GS pool is limited by the amount of food you have available and happy / health cap. So typically an early engineer would rather be used for an expensive wonder helping the overall strategy (AP, Sistine, etc). So another question would be: is it worth wasting GEs on bulbs instead of bulbing with scientists (which they do better anyway)?

Still no game to illustrate this? Still don't see the utility of this strategy. Need to see an example.

Zx Zero Zx said:

Have fun trying to ever get more than 3 cities on Deity by not having Slavery!

Click to expand...

Jack Funk said:

Still no game to illustrate this? Still don't see the utility of this strategy. Need to see an example.

Click to expand...

Sure, heres my 4000 BC save. I decided Cathy makes the best leader for trying this for fast settlers + libraries without chops.

Greetings, and sorry for the delay. It's the academic job market season, and I just haven't had the time till now to dedicate to Civ playing. I'm sure you all have gone through similar weeks. When I wrote the article, I had no idea I was gonna face such stiff feedback and have the "gauntlet dropped" on me (Cheers to Abegweit).

I have updated the article (including some new comments on tech trading) and am posting an Immortal Frederick save where I think the delayed-Bronze Working Liberalism bulb is called for. If someone can tell me how to tweak the file for Deity (or do it for me), I can post that alongside it.

I hope everyone is well, and I look forward to additional cordial feedback from more experienced players. Good times.

bhavv said:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I teched archery first like a boss, but I didnt make enough archers and now Alexander is gonna squish me into a pancake. But 6 cities and more archers instead of the 7 cities I did here could work. I neglected workers / improvements to rex as fast as possible without BW

Sure, heres my 4000 BC save. I decided Cathy makes the best leader for trying this for fast settlers + libraries without chops.

Click to expand...

You're still going to lose due to no slavery. >.>

@Bhavv

I must tell you that start and leader are craving for whipping. I am 100% sure even Brennus.Quigley himself would go for BW here.

Catherine is totally BDSM. You see, Imperialistic trait is giving you +50% hammer bonus when building settler. That means that you have to convert food to hammers if you want to take full benefit from it. You do that with slavery. Also, forest chops get that bonus too. True, Creative leaders can do better without BW than others since you don't need monument and libraries are cheaper, but then you should use that trait in your advantage since you can build granary first with chops or whip. Although, monuments can be skipped in most of the cases by settling near resources.

Now about why this start is perfect for BW:

20+ forests, c'mon, you start on tip of the peninsula and have forests to chop, your land is totally underdeveloped, even for ususally lower REXing standards, chopping worker or two in early phase would help a lot and then your BPT wouldn't be as low as it is, you have Alex for a neighbour. You can't have enough military to prevent Alex from attacking. What you can have is whip/chop so you can produce defense quickly once he attacks you. Maybe you even have copper somewhere to build some axes for those swords.


When ZxZeroZx said that you won't have more than 3 cities without BW, he probably meant on Pangaea map, high sea level. Which actually is what people play most often. Although exaggerating as usual, he was right about that.

Actually, when I see all of this, I think you just wanted to prove Zx wrong while did nothing to show that no BW can work out well. You also didn't say how you feel about this whole new no BW strategy when you look at your current game and your overall experience.