How powerful will Venice be?

meowschwitz · Jul 8, 2013

I imagine that the AI will either be top notch or dreadful depending on the start but where do you think that they'll be tier wise on average. Will they be closer to Mayan ICS or No religion Byzantine?

I can't help but think that double the trade routes will make them the best trading civ alongside getting fast policies and having an awesome puppet empire. I think amongst skilled players, they could definitely end up being top tier.

Tsar NicholasII · Jul 8, 2013

A fleet of Submarines would devastate Venice more than any other civ since their entire civilization depends on Gold.

Princeofnigeria · Jul 8, 2013

The Danes, polynesians, english, carthagians, dutch, and Byzantines will crush their trade and starve their coffers, snuffing out the Venitians
The mongols, huns, assyria, English (again), Songhai, America, and Rome will be able to concentrate thier city crushers onto one target, smashing the city state to bits.
The Egyptians, Koreans, Incans, Carthagians (again), Mayans, and new France will have a capitol equal to Venice, and extra cities to boot.
In my mind? VERY WEAK.

meowschwitz · Jul 8, 2013

I guess the key is finding will trading partners like Morocco and Portugal will be the only hope for them to leverage their trade routes. Also the internal trade routes (stemming from the puppets) could give Venice an even better Capital than the ones that you mention.

Yzman · Jul 8, 2013

People forget about their buying units in puppets. That is very powerful. I remember most of my games would be maybe 3-4 core cities with a lot of puppets. Imagine that will be similar with Venice, except for the fact that they now can mass rush a huge army on all of their recently conquered cities without having to worry about the happiness hit of annexing. Plus they should have more money to do so.

Goldkoron · Jul 8, 2013

Capturing Venice's capital with be no small feat. Its the biggest weakness Venice has, but its the only place that Venice truly needs to focus on defending. It won't be easy to kill Venice when Venice has the money to buy units constantly in it's capital.

meowschwitz · Jul 8, 2013

Yzman said:
People forget about their buying units in puppets. That is very powerful. I remember most of my games would be maybe 3-4 core cities with a lot of puppets. Imagine that will be similar with Venice, except for the fact that they now can mass rush a huge army on all of their recently conquered cities without having to worry about the happiness hit of annexing. Plus they should have more money to do so.

Yeah I imagine that having immediate reinforcements from new cities will be awesome. Also the using of nearby city states (like Austria) as military bases will be awesome. They could end up being a sneaky domination civ or just really good at ganging up on people diplomatically.

Ogrelord · Jul 8, 2013

You losing 1 out 7 trade routes will hurt you more than Venice losing 1 out of 14. And how fast do think they can replaced their cargo ships with their production/buying power?

Don't underestimate Emperor+ Venetians... :c5influence:

Princeofnigeria · Jul 8, 2013

Ogrelord said:
You losing 1 out 7 trade routes will hurt you more than Venice losing 1 out of 14. And how fast do think they can replaced their cargo ships with their production/buying power?

Don't underestimate Emperor+ Venetians...

Me losing one of my 7 routes in one of my 5 cities will hurt much less than venice losing one of it's only 14
Also, don't underestimate the power of power concentration. If I know for a fact that I only have to fight on one front I concentrate my forces much better. Knowing venice can't flank me (without many, many turns of prep time/ unit buying) will allow me to throw everything at venic itself, a great disadvantage to the citystate.

Calouste · Jul 8, 2013

Tsar NicholasII said:
A fleet of Submarines would devastate Venice more than any other civ since their entire civilization depends on Gold.

I must have missed that bit where Venice can't build or buy Destroyers, could you give me a link to that?

Princeofnigeria · Jul 8, 2013

Calouste said:
I must have missed that bit where Venice can't build or buy Destroyers, could you give me a link to that?

And I must have missed the bit where venice can afford to both buy AND maintain a navy large enough to defend 2 times as many trade routes while maintaining a powerful enough land army to fend off every warmongering AI on the map. Could you give me a link that says double trade routes= X8 gold and 1/2 off unit maintenence? I also must have missed the new mechanic where when venice is in the game the all other sides are banned from building battleships and carriers to counter the few destroyers they can muster. Link?

Ogrelord · Jul 8, 2013

Princeofnigeria said:
Me losing one of my 7 routes in one of my 5 cities will hurt much less than venice losing one of it's only 14
Also, don't underestimate the power of power concentration. If I know for a fact that I only have to fight on one front I concentrate my forces much better. Knowing venice can't flank me (without many, many turns of prep time/ unit buying) will allow me to throw everything at venic itself, a great disadvantage to the citystate.

Venice is not a City-State.. :lol:

You do not get X amount of ITR per city. The amount of International Trade Routes is for the entire Civilization.
(these aren't real numbers, I am just throwing them for the sake of discussion):
7 trade routes at average 15 gold per turn each = 105 gold
14 trade routes at average 15 gold per turn each = 205 gold

you lose 1, you lose more % of gold revenue per turn.

Bakspatel · Jul 8, 2013

Princeofnigeria said:
And I must have missed the bit where venice can afford to both buy AND maintain a navy large enough to defend 2 times as many trade routes while maintaining a powerful enough land army to fend off every warmongering AI on the map. Could you give me a link that says double trade routes= X8 gold and 1/2 pff unit maintenence? I also must have missed the new mechanic where when venice is in the game the all other sides are banned from building battleships and carriers to counter the few destroyers they can muster. Link?

So basically you're saying that having trade routes is a disadvantage? You must be horrified of BNW's updates then. Besides that you're saying pretty much everything that everyone can counter during a game.

Princeofnigeria · Jul 8, 2013

Bakspatel said:
So basically you're saying that having trade routes is a disadvantage? You must be horrified of BNW's updates then. Besides that you're saying pretty much everything that everyone can counter during a game.

No. I am saying that if you have twice as many routes you must also have the capacity to defend twice as many routes in a way that protects you from the majority of reasonable offensives, which I believe Venice cannot.

Princeofnigeria · Jul 8, 2013

Ogrelord said:
You do not get X amount of ITR per city. The amount of International Trade Routes is for the entire Civilization.
(these aren't real numbers, I am just throwing them for the sake of discussion):
7 trade routes at average 15 gold per turn each = 105 gold
14 trade routes at average 15 gold per turn each = 205 gold

you lose 1, you lose more % of gold revenue per turn.

Ah, that is new information to me. Still, "city connections" as they are now refered likely will shift the balance closer to even.

Calouste · Jul 8, 2013

Princeofnigeria said:
And I must have missed the bit where venice can afford to both buy AND maintain a navy large enough to defend 2 times as many trade routes while maintaining a powerful enough land army to fend off every warmongering AI on the map. Could you give me a link that says double trade routes= X8 gold and 1/2 off unit maintenence? I also must have missed the new mechanic where when venice is in the game the all other sides are banned from building battleships and carriers to counter the few destroyers they can muster. Link?

Have you never played a gold-based game in G&K? Stuff is cheap to buy when you have the right policy and Big Ben.

And there is also this thing called Diplomacy. You can you it to make sure that not everyone declares war on you. You might even get allies.

Princeofnigeria · Jul 8, 2013

Calouste said:
Have you never played a gold-based game in G&K? Stuff is cheap to buy when you have the right policy and Big Ben.

And there is also this thing called Diplomacy. You can you it to make sure that not everyone declares war on you. You might even get allies.

I am by no means a warmounger, and know well diplomacy, but Dandy of Venice doesn't. They said specifically in the "making of bnw" article that he will be an arse, a bull headed brute, and a warmounger, bad news if you've only got one true city to use. And if I AM Venice the AI will mercilessly target me for being weak, it's a lose lose situation. Buying may be cheap, but your opponents can do it too, and there are likely more places for them to come from.

Sadato · Jul 8, 2013

There are many people still out there that have no clue about the power and capabilities of OCC play.

Luckystrike77 · Jul 8, 2013

How powerful will Venice be?

In my hands; extremely powerfull!

MadMage86 · Jul 8, 2013

Princeofnigeria said:
Ah, that is new information to me. Still, "city connections" as they are now refered likely will shift the balance closer to even.

Those were only really ever good enough to cover more than the increased cost of putting down the roads themselves.

How powerful will Venice be?

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