Requesting Help Moving Up to Diety

Hello,

I love civ 5 and have been playing it a tonn recently. I used to play on emperor but wanted a bit more of a challenge so tried out immortal with success. I find I can win the majority of the time on immortal, so stepped it up to Deity with no luck.

I've won on deity a couple of times but find I usually lose. Can you experts answer some quick questions and I'll outline my usual tactic, maybe give some feedback?

Firstly, my typical game:

Favourite civs: The Shoshone, the Maya or Poland (I find Korea+Freedom too powerful so no challenge and Babylon overrated).

Starting Research strategy:

Pottery > Resource research (usually mining) > Library > A couple resource researches > National College research > couple military or resource researches to fill stuff out like being able to build roads > I click on education and queue up the next 6 researches in a row > I click on the tech for workshops.

Starting Builds:
Scout > Worker > Shrine > Library > Settler > Granary/Water Mill

My typical strategy is pray for a religion, build a 2nd city before the national college and buy the library for my 2nd city so I can start the national college right away, then expand if there are any good spots left.

I always go tall, I don't really understand how people can create multiple cities which I'll go into later.

Here are my questions:

1. I will still have problems with happiness with 3 cities, with 4 I'll almost always dip into the negatives sometime during the game. How the heck do people not always go tall? It doesn't make sense to me, it makes me think I'm doing something wrong.

2. I build my artists guild in my capital, writers guild in my 2nd city and music guild in my 3rd city. Is this typical or optimal?

3. I find I don't surpass the computer in tech until the modern era. Is this typical for deity? Is there a faster way to progress in tech?

4. How do people win cultural victories? I played an immortal game where I got nearly all the culture and tourism wonders and was going for a cultural win, I ended up having to delay a diplomatic and science victory just to get the cultural win.

5. I tend to go freedom or autocracy for ideology. I love being able to build troops and give them 3 upgrades right away. I usually delay getting oxford university and time it so as soon as I finish economics oxford university finishes giving me the free tech and unlocking coal/factories. I'm usually first, sometimes 2nd, to get an ideology.

Is this best though? I've found the computer usually loads up on opposing ideologies and forces down my happiness, plus there are always lots of civs attacking me from stealing their techs and differing ideologies. I was thinking it might be best to time it so I'm second to an ideology and then be the leading civ's toadie while going for a science win. It would keep the computer off my back.

6. I read somewhere that people don't like the celts because they find they don't build a lot of their civ bonus buildings, so people don't build opera houses? I don't understand. There's something I'm missing, as going tall I build nearly all the buildings I can in each city, I just prioritize some over others and ALWAYS build opera houses.

7. For social policies:

Tradition - up to free monuments - then finish the tradition tree.

Next depends on how well my culture is doing, if I can I'll go aesthetics and then put the 2nd point into 1/2 time on culture buildings.

I like the commerce tree too, I'll work up the right side and grab the discount on purchasing in cities. That with Big Ben halves the gold cost of troops/buildings.

Rationalism - As soon as it's available I pump it up. I'll continue putting points into rationalism for +specialists, more scientists and plus %tech from universities even if I've adopted an ideology.

Once that's done I'll pump up the ideology until I've unlocked a third tier social policy, then I'll go back and finish up rationalism (usually grabbing atomic theory as the free tech).

Thoughts? Does this strategy seem wise/good/stupid?

Thanks

tip 1: skip religion since un diety u wil need to wait for ages for a panteon any way and chances for a religion are near 0
tip 2: early settlers i recomend u going 2x scout folowed by Granary and then at 4 population spam 3 settlers and protect them with scouts and warior worker afther setler
tip 3: 4 city tradition works quite fine and if u settle them early enough u can make sure every city has a unique lux
tip 4: it depends but normaly u won't surpas them wil u bolb your gs
tip 5: cultural victory is a joke that is nearly imposible to do unless when playing polinesia or brazill
tip 6: u don't wan't to pick a ideology til your strongest neighbor has picked one and then pick the same (in multiplayer u wan't to rush one)
tip 7: Opera houses are a think u can ondly aford to build in single player
in multiplayer u wil be spaming crossbows to defend your empire at this time and any spare production wil go in to more imporant buildings than opera houses

Rationalism - As soon as it's available I pump it up. I'll continue putting points into rationalism for +specialists, more scientists and plus %tech from universities even if I've adopted an ideology.

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In the base game with out any balancing mod's Rationalism is so OP that u have to get the first 3 regard less of what you are doing, so u got to pick them over ideology

Religion: I don't "build" religion. I have my own only if CS or Natural Wonder builds it for me. Instead of early shrines i build pointy sticks (so Shaka doesn't get me) or extra scouts for whatever scouts are good for.

1. Happy faces:
- settle only if new unique lux nearby
- CS
- trade with other civs

2. I build pointy sticks so Shaka doesn't get me. Then theres Attila and Oda and ...

3. Food, caravans, spies

4. Sorry, can't help here. I do it with pointy sticks

5. I use Oxford for artilery.

6. Build only what you really, really need. Not what you "want", what you need.

I am struggling Deity player, but maybe that be just as helpful as the folks who make it all seem so easy?

Iskiab said:

I find Korea+Freedom too powerful so no challenge

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So you always win at Deity play Korea?

I find this odd because the general rule of thumb is that: Player skill >> starting dirt >> civ choice.

So if you can mostly always win at Deity using Korea, you should be in okay shape with Shoshone, Maya, and Poland!

Starting Builds:
Scout > Worker > Shrine > Library > Settler > Granary/Water Mill

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That is much, much too early for worker. Settler should certainly be after Library.

In nine out of ten games my cap BO is:
scout, scout, shrine, monument, worker (If I have gotten lucky), 3x settlers.

BO in expos is granary/library. About half the time I rush buy a Library in the 3rd expo.

My typical strategy is ... build a 2nd city before the national college and buy the library for my 2nd city so I can start the national college right away, then expand if there are any good spots left.

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I am confident that, at Deity, this strategy will mean almost never having space for a forth city!

I will still have problems with happiness with 3 cities, with 4 I'll almost always dip into the negatives sometime during the game. How the heck do people not always go tall? It doesn't make sense to me, it makes me think I'm doing something wrong.

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Dipping into minor unhappiness for short period of time is okay. The window for getting even four cities is pretty short -- so well worth the slow growth for a dozen turns or so.

I build my artists guild in my capital, writers guild in my 2nd city and music guild in my 3rd city. Is this typical or optimal?

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I think that is quite terrible. Especially with Tradition, you want your cap big enough to support all three guilds. Music guild should be late, no matter the VC.

I find I don't surpass the computer in tech until the modern era. Is this typical for deity? Is there a faster way to progress in tech?

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That is my experience, and I think it is pretty common. The early game is all about hanging on by the skin of your teeth.

How do people win cultural victories?

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Wish I could help you here! I am still trying to work this out myself...

I usually delay getting oxford university and time it so as soon as I finish banking oxford university finishes giving me the free tech and unlocking coal/factories.

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I think the most common tactic is using Oxford to unlock Radio.

I'm usually first, sometimes 2nd, to get an ideology.

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Are you talking Deity or referring back to your Immortal experience? At Deity, this is very good, obviously.

Is this best though?

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Yes, two free picks > other considerations.

I've found the computer usually loads up on opposing ideologies and forces down my happiness, plus there are always lots of civs attacking me from stealing their techs and differing ideologies.

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Yes, get used to it.

I was thinking it might be best to time it so I'm second to an ideology and then be the leading civ's toadie while going for a science win. It would keep the computer off my back.

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This is an okay tactic, and something I used for a long while when I was first playing at Deity. Now I only do it when my games are developing poorly. It happens.

I read somewhere that people don't like the celts because they find they don't build a lot of their civ bonus buildings, so people don't build opera houses? I don't understand. There's something I'm missing, as going tall I build nearly all the buildings I can in each city, I just prioritize some over others and ALWAYS build opera houses.

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I almost always build the Hermitage. I don't find the arguments against skipping it to be sufficiently compelling. Did I mention that I struggle with Deity?

Tradition - up to free monuments - then finish the tradition tree.

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Tradition begs to be worked straight through, free Monuments ASAP of course. The finisher is too strong to put off.

Next depends on how well my culture is doing, if I can I'll go aesthetics and then put the 2nd point into 1/2 time on culture buildings. I like the commerce tree too, I'll work up the right side and grab the discount on purchasing in cities. That with Big Ben halves the gold cost of troops/buildings.

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You should not have more two picks between closing out Tradition and opening Rationalism. So you have to make difficult choices. Spare polices to either Aesthetics or Commerce are fine choice. You do not want to sacrifice finishing Tradition or the first three picks in Rationalism though. Typically I do not go back to my second tree until I have six plus picks in my Ideology and have closed out Rationalism. The closers in every tree are strong, so I do like to finish it out by the end of the game, but my games typically go well past T300.

Your treatment of balancing Rationalism and Ideology is sound.

I quite agree with the other advise you have gotten, except with regards to skipping the shrine.

The yields from an early pantheon >> lost opportunity cost of building something else. The math is easy.

A faith-oriented pantheon (doesn’t have to be desert folklore, there are a few that work almost as well) gets me a religion in more than half of my Deity games. If I found, I am almost certainly last, but having my own religion is much, much better than borrowing a religion -- even if I miss all the faith buildings. If a neighbor gives me Jesuit education, that is okay too, I will just assert my own religion after the labs are up. Founder benefits are weak, but having Tithe is better than having nothing. Also, CS conversion quests are essentially free influence. Plus, you and I get something out of Religious Art....

I disagree with both of the first two responders: there's nothing wrong with attempting to go for a religion, and it certainly is not true that your chances are near 0. Yes, it's harder on deity, and you should only attempt it if certain civs or if your dirt gives you a realistic chance. If I roll as Austria, I've got grassland/plains around, and my nearby luxes are ivory and truffles, then I probably wouldn't go for a religion on deity. If I'm Ethiopia, I start in desert by a river with flood plains, I most certainly will be going playing for a religion. Most cases are in between of course, but when I attempt to go for a religion on deity, much more often than not, I get one. And I am far from an expert deity player.

Onto your questions:
1. There are several whole threads about going wide and the viability of liberty on deity. The long and short of it: tradition is probably easier to master and better in many cases, but if played right, liberty can be just as viable. Here's a good guide: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=559009

2. It's a case-by-case basis. If going for a tall cultural victory, and your capital will have a garden and national epic and have by far the most population, then I would put all your guilds there. For a wide civ, or if your capital can't build a garden, it might be better to spread out the guilds.

3. For the better players, they might be able to get the tech lead in the late medieval/renaissance eras. I've been able to accomplish that with some of my better, more fortunate starts. Otherwise, I think if you're able to get a tech lead at all in a deity game, even if it's in the modern era, you're probably doing fine. (That is, you'll probably win.)

4. It's not just the cultural wonders. It's digging up artifacts and landmarks. It's being good with diplomacy (knowing when to go to war, or when to maintain good relations for open borders). It's building up faith for late musicians. It's timing international games with the internet. There are guides for this too.

5. Order seems to be the AI's preferred ideology, so don't be afraid to go there. If you think other civs will likely have cultural influence over you, order is probably safest on deity if you go first. Waiting for the strongest tourism civ to declare an ideology is also a reasonable strategy, but it always depends. That extra tenet can be so enticing. I've won on deity after being forced to switch my ideology though, so don't think of it as the end of the world.

6. I build opera houses but it's usually low priority. Only as needed. (If I have a great musician coming in 10 turns, or if I need museums to store my artifacts.)

7. I don't think there's anything wrong with your policy strategy. I usually vary it up from one game to the next, though, so I don't think there's a "one strategy beats all". As with everything else, it's a case-by-case basis. I don't usually open aesthetics as my second tree unless I'm going for cultural victory though. I think my favorite secondary tree is probably patronage.

Good luck!

Thanks for all the replies. Responding to some of the responses:
- Korea on Deity might not be an easy win, but Korea on Immortal is an easy win unless I start next to Shaka or Greece.
- I find the pantheons that give faith pretty good too. When building the shrine early I'll usually get a religion, but won't usually get the buildings unless I get lucky or play someone like the Maya or Ethiopia, and even then it's not guaranteed. One of the reasons why I like the Shoshone too is you can choose faith as a reward from a goody hut once you've researched pottery. You can get all the faith you need for a pantheon from one hut. Once you have a pantheon you can choose a great prophet too, but I think it's only 90 faith or so.

One follow up question: do you bribe city states early? Generally I prefer Autocracy or Democracy for the 3rd tier city state influence social policies, and do quests but mostly ignore city states before then. I've been thinking recently that maybe I should be going for them earlier for the faith/culture/food but am not sure.

You seem to put too much emphasize on early science : early library, 2 city NC.

Big and strong cities are worth a lot more than early game science. This is mostly because science is... mostly a function of how strong your cities are. This is also why science benchmarks are dangerous and not a good habit to focus on. A T75NC or a T90 Education DO NOT necessarily mean your game will be amazingly fast. It's like saying killing your horse to reach 1/3rd of the race first will make you win the race. It depends on what was the opportunity cost of getting there

Focus a bit less on your early science, make at least 2 settlers before NC. Make caravans for food etc. Basically try to get a basic economy rolling before focusing on science. Once you have a good economy focus on science. Once your build order make more sense you will try to optimize it to make the NC turn go down.

1. Exchange luxuries, if you have the opportunity get a religion, try allying city states.
2. It's okay, kinda depend on the food situation. Tradition with a food heavy capital can usually work all guilds. Rarely I make the musician one if I don't play a culture victory.
3. Well it's not too bad... As long as you catch up to the AI somewhere you can win science victories I guess. I usually catch up in Renaissance or early-industrial depending on the game.
4. By reaching the culture tech faster... cultural victories by their cumulative nature are mostly speed based. And the only thing that matter in a race in civ5 is science.
5. People often use oxford for radio instead giving you a fast ideology. This is especially good if you don't really need factories which is usually the case for freedom science victories. Pick autocracy only if you plan to win by domination.
6. The opera house is a rather bad building by itself... 200hammers for 1culture is a really poor investment unless you are going for the hermitage. Getting the hermitage is not always necessary for non culture games. If you do get the hermitage... please make your guilds in the capital...
Celts are a pretty nice culture civ by the way.
7. Do not go aesthetics unless you want to win by culture. Investing in culture policies to only get more culture IS A TERRIBLE IDEA.

It seems like the problem is the early game, and from that point the whole game will be harder.

Your initial build order is kind of odd, settler after library is not a good idea. The library will take a lot of turns to build at that point in the game and you are not getting that much from it (1-2 beakers is not that much). Getting settlers fast is important. Try to time it so that you build settlers about the time your capital hits pop 3 (pop 4 if you get a population ruin). Build at least 2 one after the other, and if you managed to steal a worker use it to chop forests to get your settlers faster. My usual build order for tradition is: scout, scout, monument, then shrine if there is a nice pantheon choice, then 3 settlers and then a granary granary. After that is a varies a lot but an archer, caravan and library are prioritized. If I get a culture ruin and go for tradition I will skip the monument. Shrine is a good investment if there is dirt for a good pantheon. You need to know what pantheons go first and decide if you actually have a shot of getting what you want (almost always Goddess of Protection goes first but that is a really crappy one, other popular choices for AI are God of the Open Sky, Desert Folklore, Oral Tradition, sometimes Stone Circles and even God of the Sea).

The pantheon itself needs to be worth it even if you don't get religion, otherwise the opportunity cost is too big. If you get a religion that is a bonus, and you might even be lucky to get some good stuff, but in general the religion game is not that important. I rarely invest more than the shrine for it.

Your tech order is also pretty odd, but that is related to your build order. I try to time it so that I get techs when I need them. The safest way is Pottery first for the shrine, but Animal Husbandry is also a good choice to reveal the horses faster. Then I do mining to get the ability to chop forests (at about this time I usually manage to steal a worker). After that archery and then depending on the luxuries around I might get a luxury tech (calendar/trapping/masonry), or go for bronze working to reveal iron (also chop jungle). I try to get writing about when my second expo finishes the granary to start on the library right away. I also try to time philosophy when my cities are done with the libraries (I usually rush buy the library in the last expo).

You need to be careful when bee-lining education, if you just press the education button then the game will probably do something like: drama and poetry, theology, horseback riding, mathematics, currency, civil service then education. The order of these techs is pretty important, you might want to beeline currency first to start on markets, then civil service for the huge food bonus and leave theology last. Unless you want to rush medieval to open up things like commerce or exploration there are not many benefits to getting theology that fast.

To answer the questions:

1. You need to settle near luxuries and prioritize improving them. This is why it is important to get settlers out fast. Use units to block AI from getting your spots, if you can't do it peacefully don't be afraid to declare war, the AI will forgive you.

2. For tradition no. You should build them in the capital especially if you have HG there. In liberty games it is best to spread them.

3. It's not bad, but you can usually surpass it in industrial era.

4. Tech fast and have the hammers to build the cultural buildings and archeologist. It is pretty hard though. You can also warmonger and completely kill the cultural leaders.

5. It's best to be the first to ideology, the free tenants are worth it. Each ideology has it's strong points so pick what is best in your situation. Order is pretty strong, so don't ignore it.

Oxford for industrialization is pretty risky since you might not reveal coal in your territory. You also need to build/buy factories and you might not have the hammers/cash to do it fast enough. It is more important to get Public Schools faster, so the best way is to enter industrial era via Scientific Theory. Then you can research Electricity and Oxford is usually used for radio to slingshot into modern era. You also get to build the Eiffel Tower which will help with the pressure later on.

6. Opera houses require amphitheaters and you pretty much invest 300 hammers to get +2 culture, -2 gold. You can build the Hermitage which is a good NW but not game changing. Unless you go for a cultural victory I don't think opera houses are worth it that much. If you manage to win world fair and bulb all your great writers during the bonus you are pretty much covered SP wise, you don't really need the extra culture from Hermitage and Broadcast Towers.

7. SP wise you are pretty much free to do whatever you want... Honestly you can even win with Piety starts. The popular choice seems to be: full Tradition, 0-2 filler policies (maybe 3 with Oracle), then 4 in Rationalism, get the best in ideology, get back to finish Rationalism, and then get back to ideology or your filler tree. You can abide to this formula (meaning there is little variation), and after you get the hang of it change more things. Rationalism is very big but you can win without even opening it.

Okay, thanks for the tips. About bee-lining education, maybe that's why I like the Maya and think Korea is so powerful, it leads to an early theology and prioritizing production & science buildings gives me lots of specialists slots.

I have some more questions too, now that I tried adapting and changing my initial builds and tech progression:

1. Do you usually build all your military buildings in your capital? I found building all my guilds in the capital seemed to weaken it's hammers. The default is 2 specialists per guild so that's a lot of pop used up even before universities & workshops. I also seemed to get less great people. My capital seemed lower hammers and my other cities seemed stronger. My typical strategy is to get the brandenberg gate in the capital and build all military units there.

2. How many military units do you guys usually build in peacetime. I put a ranged in each city and then only have maybe 8 other units until my first war.

3. I found in the one game I tried, I failed to get any wonders going for 4 early cities. Is that normal? Usually I'll get a couple of early wonders, maybe the free policy wonder and the Sisteen chapel. I even played one game where no one went for stonehenge and I managed to get it (must have been no celts). Having all the guilds in the capital made brandenberg gate take 20 turns rather then 12, but I also didn't have coal for factories.

I only build both the Writers and the Artists Guild in my capital if it

1) has amazing growth tiles
2) is coastal and being fed by multiple cargo ships

If those do not apply I usually just build the Writers Guild in my cap and the Artists Guild in my expo with the best growth.

I don't build the Musicians Guild at all unless I'm doing terrible in terms of happiness.

Oh, another question just came to mind:

Is it common to use cargo ships for growth? I almost never do. I'll sometimes use cargo ships for hammers into a weak city to build some key buildings for wonders but that's it.

Hammers are fine, but double food (as compared to caravans) to your capital is pure gold (literally, since Monarchy (if you went Tradition) converts your capital's population to gold, and population growth in your capital also significantly boosts the gold yields from each of your city connections).

yung.carl.jung said:

I only build both the Writers and the Artists Guild in my capital if it

1) has amazing growth tiles
2) is coastal and being fed by multiple cargo ships

If those do not apply I usually just build the Writers Guild in my cap and the Artists Guild in my expo with the best growth.

I don't build the Musicians Guild at all unless I'm doing terrible in terms of happiness.

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I don't get the hate for Musicians Guild. It is worth it to work it in non CV games, I usually build it later in most games but I do build it. It is 6 CPT and 4 BPT with rationalism, not something to throw away. If you have the slots you can also convert some of the musicians to great works of music for another 2 CPT and TPT.

Tried another quick game and found my culture production was terrible without building opera houses. Another civ also became influential with me before internet! Am I missing something?

In terms of culture, I only got one extra policy between full tradition and rationalism, compared to 3-4 with my previous method (including how I almost always get oracle since I do oracle right after the national college).

I guess this is to be expected. Civ 5 is all about opportunity cost, and a major change to strategy will always solve some problems while creating new ones. Despite my original strategy being unorthodox, I'm not sure if the changes are making my play stronger.

When do you build your Guilds? Are you doing your best to befriend and ally Cultural CS? I pretty much never build Opera Houses yet don't seem to have Culture problems.

claudiupb said:

I don't get the hate for Musicians Guild. It is worth it to work it in non CV games, I usually build it later in most games but I do build it. It is 6 CPT and 4 BPT with rationalism, not something to throw away. If you have the slots you can also convert some of the musicians to great works of music for another 2 CPT and TPT.

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I don't "hate" it, I just have better things to build most of the time. Sure, if I'm not busy building food/production/science buildings or military I'll get the MG. It's a much better investment than say Amphitheaters or something like that. Though to be completely honest with you I skip it in 2 out of 3 games, usually only build it when my culture is terrible or my blood Ideology pressure too damn high.

Iskiab said:

Do you usually build all your military buildings in your capital? ... My typical strategy is to get the brandenberg gate in the capital and build all military units there.

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I usually end up with military buildings in all four cities. Early on, just the cap can spare the hammers for units. Later on though, the cap is busy with wonders, so units are off-loaded to the expos.

Brandenburg is nice, but it does temp one to only build in a single city. That is a bit of a trap.

I agree with people saying guilds in cap. It should be your largest city, and can spare the hammers.

How many military units do you guys usually build in peacetime. I put a ranged in each city and then only have maybe 8 other units until my first war.

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That actually seems like too many idle units to me. That is a lot of hammers and gold maintenance that is not doing anything for you.

I found in the one game I tried, I failed to get any wonders going for 4 early cities. Is that normal?

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Yes, that is normal. Deity AIs are very competitive for the early wonders.

Iskiab said:

Is it common to use cargo ships for growth?

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Yes, very much so. But it is something I am trying to get better timings for myself.

Iskiab said:

Tried another quick game and found my culture production was terrible without building opera houses. Another civ also became influential with me before internet! Am I missing something?

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That is quite common in my experience actually.

In terms of culture, I only got one extra policy between full tradition and rationalism, compared to 3-4 with my previous method (including how I almost always get oracle since I do oracle right after the national college).

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That is pretty typical, and not a bad thing on its face. Every SP between Tradition and Rationalism is ultimately one less ideology tenet.

Despite my original strategy being unorthodox, I'm not sure if the changes are making my play stronger.

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I am confident that the changes are to the good -- since you had some low-hanging fruit to trim!

One more quick question since it came up in my last game.

I play with the map mod Perfect World, and ended up with a tonn of room to expand in my last game. I actually had space for 2 more cities bringing me to 6! The spots had no new luxury resources and only duplicates of what I already had, but they would have been cities on a river and beside a mountain. One had 4 fish resources, the other had 2 bananas and a wheat.

Do you ever expand to over 4 cities? The spots ended up being taken by the computer before I completed oxford, but it was tempting to snap them up. I also founded a religion and got pagodas and +2 happiness from temples so was doing okay in happiness.

If you have room to expand, DON'T BE AFRAID TO GO LIBERTY. Liberty is far better and more viable than you may think.
Of course, even going tradition if you're too stubborn, you should even still expand the extra spots. The hammers will be terrible and you'll have to build monuments and acqueducts obscenely slowly but it's usually worth it if you can support them.

Well thanks for all the replies, I've played 3-4 deity games and can say that my game has improved.

I've gone with my own style so to say and I've decided:

- Scout - Scout/Worker - shrine is better for my initial build (early worker if there's no city-state to steal from or I'm on a small island).
- Musician guilds are definitely worth it, I don't like the idea of letting another civ becomes influential with me and then hoping an AI civ is generating enough culture to still win, I've generated up to 1k culture a turn going with all 3 and seem to be resting at about 250 with just 2
- Liberty... still don't like it
- Spamming 3 settlers when I have a worker is better then an early national college

I've played maybe 3-4 deity games and I've been winning pretty consistently, I've switched it up so I play a random civ instead of my favourite civs and am still winning, so thanks for the help.