Maya - Good or just Great?

So I thought I would lay out my initial impressions of the Mayans from my current G&K binge.

Unique Building
Pyramid(Replaces Shrine): +2 , +2 :faith:, 1 upkeep

This looks to be amazing. An extra 2 that early per city is really nice plus you get an additional faith over the norm. [****]

Unique Ability
The Long Count: After researching Theology, every 394 years you gain a free Great Person of your choice. You can only pick each type of Great Person once.

This means you can have up to 7 free Great People. This ability is a double edged sword. Let's look at the Pros and Cons

Pros

• Free GPs (Up to 7)
• Fast generation early in game
• Early Great Scientists/Great Prophets can really give you an advantage.

Cons

• Requires Theology
• You don't get GPs for missed Long Count years. The later you get Theology the fewer GPs you get and the come slower as the years per turn decrease.
• Early free GPs will outpace natural ones, cutting them off. New in G&K, 'free' GPs aren't as free as they used to be as each one increases the number of GP points required as if it were a natural one.. [***]

Really ability is an all or nothing deal. If you Bee-line it, then you get the full tactical advantage. Settle that early G. Scientist and Found/Enchance your religion with that G. Prophet. The others you can slide into whatever role you wish, I prefer to settle G. Engineers and Merchants and pop Artists for a Golden Age. However if you bee-line Theology, you don't have much in the way of defense... or do you.

Unique Unit
Atlatlist(Replaces Archer): Available from start and 4 cheaper than the Archer.

I love this unit, for a lot of reasons. The first being I can ignore Archery almost forever until I'm ready to plow through the lower half of the tech tree to Crossbows and eventually Gatling Guns. While 4 hammers doesn't sound like much it can make a difference in the long run. I honestly think it could stand to be 4 cheaper (For a total of 8 (10%) cheaper but that's just my opinion) [****]

So does anyone agree with me or think I'm crazy?

After you reach the 7th B'ak'tun the ability resets itself and you can once again select one of each great person. In my current game as Maya I am on my 9th great person from the UA in ~1500 AD.

Ooh even more reason to get it early.

I agree Maya is pretty good.
Think of it this way:

1) Interfaith Dialogue (extra science per trade route) can be earned earlier from the Faith that building Pyramids gives.

2) Pyramids give +2 science in themselves.

3) The tech that allows Pyramids leads to the tech that allows Libraries.

4) After picking up the first Great Person from the UA, choose a GS and plant an Academy.

That's alot of relatively early science. And if you manage to have a lot of jungle nearby, go to Rationalism after the first SP tree you picked and increase the percentages of Universities toward the mid-game to see science grow tremendously. Maya science is very powerful, though only time will tell from enough games being played on whether this Maya strat can top the Korean uber-population or Babylonian academy-carpet strats.

I think you meant Messenger of the Gods for the +2 per trade route. Interfaith Dialogue gives when your religion spreads to another city. Not sure how much though as I've never used it.

S.K. Ren said:

I think you meant Messenger of the Gods for the +2 per trade route. Interfaith Dialogue gives when your religion spreads to another city. Not sure how much though as I've never used it.

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Yes, I stand corrected: Messenger of the Gods is the Pantheon belief I meant to referrence (MofG, as a Pantheon belief, contributes to the early science; ID is a Founder or Enhance belief that appears later).

Someone make a Mayan religious-spaceship victory guide! With lots of jungle tiles, and perhaps that Jungle +1 culture bonus, the Mayans would be a force to reckon with.

Yeah, quick 4 cities, fast NC with MotG and Pyramids that's +18 (4 per city and +2 more from NCs +50%) than any other comparable civ. You'll take off like a rocket, pun intended.

Morningcalm said:

Someone make a Mayan religious-spaceship victory guide! With lots of jungle tiles, and perhaps that Jungle +1 culture bonus, the Mayans would be a force to reckon with.

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Ugh, but trading posts come so late in the game now... so you have to be working a whole lot of unimproved Jungle tiles (just 2) for a while to get much benefit out of that belief.

I think actually the best situation for the Jungle ("Sacred Path") belief might be a first City with some but much Jungle nearby (maybe only in the 2nd and 3rd rings), with tons of Jungle nearby your for 2nd and 3rd Cities (by which time you'll have Guilds researched, so you can spam lots of Trading Posts on the Jungle tiles).

Played two games so far, both with Maya. Went early pyramid, and take the Parthenon of +1 culture for pyramid. Social policies went Liberty and straight to free settler. Expand to 4 cities and first build is pyramid, which guarantee to get a religion in the 2nd or 3rd. Then heading to theology and use the countdown calendar GE for HS, the liberty finisher GE for the other wonder opened by Theology.

The important choice here is the +100g for each first spread, that early cash can buy several UU for defense and later upgrades. This way the cities can focus on library or Granary. The other follower belief can be +1 happy for pyramid. After getting NC, start spam cities again and build the super enhanced pyramid.

S.K. Ren said:

Early free GPs will outpace natural ones, cutting them off. New in G&K, 'free' GPs aren't as free as they used to be as each one increases the number of GP points required as if it were a natural one.. [***]

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Aaaaaarrrggghhhh really? thats just

What about spawning multiple great people in a single city from maxing several GP bars? Will each one now increase the GP points required for the next lot?

bhavv said:

Aaaaaarrrggghhhh really? thats just

What about spawning multiple great people in a single city from maxing several GP bars? Will each one now increase the GP points required for the next lot?

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It did increased GPP cap according to spawned number of GPs in vanilla, and works same in GnK.

Mayans are an interesting bunch.

Their UU is great given that you don't need Archery to build them, and their UB is great given extra science and faith is always nice.

The thing is their UA.

Now that free GP increase your GP Threshold, it makes it very difficult for Mayans to focus on getting a single type of GP. For example, if you're going for a science victory, you're going to be wanting lots of great scientists. The Mayan's UA is kind of a detriment to that because you get one scientist from the ability, and then every other free great person you get only slows down your scientist generation.

I've played a few games with them and they're really interesting, but it seems to me like you're going to have to really manage their UA well to be able to specialize and hone in on a victory quickly.

In my opinion the Mayans are underpowered, purely because of how clunky their UA is. Their UU comes early which is nice, but carries over nothing special upon upgrades, and their UB is fantastic earlygame as well, but the UA feels like 2kgames thought Mayans were overpowered and nerfed them before release.

There's three ways of improving them:

1) Send back their ability to Calendar. Given that their ability is based around, you know, a calendar, this would make sense.
2) Mayan Bak'Tun Great People do not increase Great Person Threshold. Would mean Mayans can still specialise without having to get a Great Artist at some point.
3) Mayans can choose the same Great People upon new Bak'Tuns. I'm not too fond of this solution, but it's certainly something.

I'd prefer Option 1 or 2, to be honest.

Maybe I'm just playing Mayans wrong, but they just seem really underwhelming.

Won't stop me from playing them though. I think they're cool as well.

S.K. Ren said:

So I thought I would lay out my initial impressions of the Aztecs from my current G&K binge.

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I'm surprised no one else noticed your mistake.

They're ok, but I'm liking the Byzantines a whole lot more.

Most overhyped civ: Austrians. Tried them today and found them to be very slow starters. They are not good at making money and need lots of it to take advantage of diplomatic marriage. Economically, scientifically, and militarily they bring nothing special to the table. I'm not even sure buying out city states is so wonderful. Oftentimes their unique benefits make them worth keeping around.

bhavv said:

Aaaaaarrrggghhhh really? thats just

What about spawning multiple great people in a single city from maxing several GP bars? Will each one now increase the GP points required for the next lot?

Click to expand...

considering they generat gp thru faith and there ua this sint such an issue u will still have endless goldenages from artist. or w/e u specalise in

SalemSage said:

Mayans are an interesting bunch.

Their UU is great given that you don't need Archery to build them, and their UB is great given extra science and faith is always nice.

The thing is their UA.

Now that free GP increase your GP Threshold, it makes it very difficult for Mayans to focus on getting a single type of GP. For example, if you're going for a science victory, you're going to be wanting lots of great scientists. The Mayan's UA is kind of a detriment to that because you get one scientist from the ability, and then every other free great person you get only slows down your scientist generation.

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I've been playing as Maya and usually find it hard to establish which GP to go for after the first two or three selections. Scientist first by default, for an early academy, usually an artist next, but what then? Prophet I usually get through Hagia Sophia, and after enhancing religion there's not a whole lot to do with them. I'll usually get a surplus of generals anyway - possibly the same would be true of admirals if I'd played any naval games so far. The long count rolls around too quickly for an Engineer to be useful unless I want a manufactory, so it's usually a choice between that and the merchant.

I've also come to the conclusion, partly because you can get GPs too early, that beelining Theology is the obvious but probably not the best choice for the Maya.

Flaviusx said:

They're ok, but I'm liking the Byzantines a whole lot more.

Most overhyped civ: Austrians. Tried them today and found them to be very slow starters. They are not good at making money and need lots of it to take advantage of diplomatic marriage. Economically, scientifically, and militarily they bring nothing special to the table. I'm not even sure buying out city states is so wonderful. Oftentimes their unique benefits make them worth keeping around.

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^This. I really hope they don't nerf Austria based on the wild claims that they're op.

I think the main problem people have with Austria is that the AI, with their insane bonuses, can actually buy up like half the map.
Back OT though, I'll have to try out that strategy EEE_BOY pointed out, sounds like a fun way to play.

fenwayb said:

^This. I really hope they don't nerf Austria based on the wild claims that they're op.

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The problem isn't when the player is behind the wheel. It's when the AI takes control of Austria at high difficulty settings where it gets showered with gold. You can imagine what happens then.