[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

Schmiddie said:

But the other idea (new yields and product lines) is also interesting because we could devide yields and products with goods from the New World (Cotton and fur) and yields and products with goods imported from Europe to the New World (cattle, sheeps, wool, hides).

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That is one of the reasons, why I had them separated originally (in the Preview).

Fur, Cotton, Coats, Cloth
-> Much better prices in Europe, than in Domestic Market

Hides, Wool, Leathergoods and Woolclothes
-> Bad prices in Europe but acceptable prices in Domestic Market

This would also ensure, that "Sheep" and "Cattle" do not get overpowered.
(Remember, with Multiple Yields Produced, the Butcher will also produce Food from them.)

Edit:

My old concept for Domestic Markets was also thinking in 3 social classes.

Example:

Farmers, Miners, ... -> Demand for Woolclothes and Leathergoods
Carpenters, Fur Traders, ... -> Demand for Cloth and Coats
Preachers, Statesmen, ... -> Demand for Coloured Cloth and Premium Coats

Schmiddie said:

Ok, if we don't remove fur and cotton from the game I agree with your idea to keep it simple ("fur and hides / "cotton and wool")

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We could do both alternatives, it is not really a difference to me.

But I would really like to discuss the pros and cons before I implement something and nobody likes it later on.

Renaming fur and cotton - does that mean, you would completely "remove" fur and cotton from the game?
In my opinion we should not do this. Fur and cotton are parts of the New World and meaningful goods for the trade with Europe.
We could add hides and wool (if there is space in the city management), but I would give a veto to the removal/renaming other goods.

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I wouldn't necessarily want to lose Fur and Cotton by having merged yields; for example Fur and Cotton are more specific to the New World and were significant export goods, while Hides and Wool are more plentiful in Europe. But, so we wouldn't also need new processed yields for everything, it might be more interesting if Wool is made into Cloth and Hides are made into Coats using the existing productionlines, so now there are 2 ways to get each. The Europe price for Hides and Wool could be relatively lower, so those would be less profitable for raw export goods but could be used for the already existing manufacturing lines.

I think Mare Nostrum uses MYP on a plot with Sheep bonus to produce Wool and Food which is even simpler. However I think that's a lot less interesting for RaR since it wouldn't use the new Livestock feature or Slaughterhouse.


I'm ok with the decision to not make yields for Swords and Gunpowder, I guess that will simplify things to help the AI make military professions more easily. But, I really liked the idea of Medicine and eventually some concept for Health. If you think its still possible to have Health eventually, I would vote its worth leaving in, even if its a regular yield for now and Health occurs in a later release.


Can you tell us a little about how the Domestic Market will work with buildings? I'm guessing that after making a building that enables domestic sale of a good, it enables that good to be selectable for domestic sale in the Domestic Market window.

I like the concepts of Wine, Beer and Rum. Similar to having several uses for Cloth and Coats buildings, it might be possible to have those produced in the existing Distillery buildings. Actually, back then getting drunk was most people's only source of entertainment. If eventually the Satisfaction measure is added at later release, can it be possible for alcohol to affect this more than for example Coats?

Will you join me for a nice refreshing glass of Rattle-Skull, Stonewall, Bogus, Blackstrap, Bombo, Mimbo, Whistle Belly, Syllabub, Sling, Toddy, and Flip?

Ok, maybe go step by step and first clarify "Sheep" and "Cattle".
(Then moving on to the next topic.)

The more I think about it again, the more I tend to this solution:

Step 1:

Profession Sheep Rancher (Livestock Breeding on Plot) --> Yield Cattle
Profession Cattle Rancher (Livestock Breeding on Plot) --> Yield Sheep

Specialist for both: Master Rancher (same as for Horses)

Step 2:

Yield Cattle -- Profession Butcher --> Yield Hides and Yield Food
Yield Sheep -- Profession Butcher --> Yield Wool and Yield Food

Specialist for both: Master Butcher
Buildings: Butchery (Level 1), Slaughterhous (Level 2) --> Graphics already exist.

Step 3:

Yield Hides -- Profession Tanner --> Yield Leathergoods
Yield Wool -- Profession Spinner --> Yield Woolcloth

Specialist Tanner: Master Tanner
Specialist Spinner: Master Spinner

Buildings Tanning: Tannery (Level 1), Leather Factory (Level 2)
Builings Spinning: Spinnery (Level 1), Woolcloth Factory (Level 2)

Woolcloth and Leathergoods have low prices in Europe, but you can sell them quite well on domestic markets.
(The "lower class" would not afford Cloth, Coats, Coloured Cloth or Premium Coats.)

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Reasons:

1. We already have 2 Professions in buildings for Coats and Cloth.
(I don't think we should have 3. This will look ugly.)

2. By having Butchers required, it is ensured, that these yield / productionlines are not overpowered.
Also the lower prices of the final products ensure them not be be overpowered.
(Remember, you will also get Food from butchering Sheep and Cattle.)

3. It is the easiest solution for AI.

4. It will allow to have distinctive goods for each social class with Domestic Market.

5. We will not have ugly long double names for yields.

6. I really think it is realistic / correct.

7. Livestock breeding is such a cool feature and we have put so much effort into it.
It would be a pitty to not use it for more than only for Horses.

Feedback ?

Sounds very good!

Yes that sounds fine. It will be nice to have different kinds of consumer goods for use with Domestic Market like you mentioned.

I've been reading some more about the historic colonial beverages to try to keep the mod as historically accurate as possible.

If it's not too much trouble, do you think we could add a few yields for Rattle-Skull, Whistle Belly, and Blackstrap, a combined yield for Bombo and Mimbo, and a production-line for Toddy (uses Spices and Rum)? If there's room it would be nice to have one for Syllabub, and a new specialist Expert Syllabubbler.

I've started coding a few of these into the XML, its taking awhile but I'll attach what I have so far.

orlanth said:

If it's not too much trouble, do you think we could add a few yields for Rattle-Skull, Whistle Belly, and Blackstrap, a combined yield for Bombo and Mimbo, and a production-line for Toddy (uses Spices and Rum)? If there's room it would be nice to have one for Syllabub, and a new specialist Expert Syllabubbler.

I've started coding a few of these into the XML, its taking awhile but I'll attach what I have so far.

Spoiler :

Am I a month too late for April Fools? nevermind, I've had too much Rattle-Skull today..

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And after that I should probably also implement a feature "Anonymous Alcoholics".

orlanth said:

But, I really liked the idea of Medicine and eventually some concept for Health. If you think its still possible to have Health eventually, I would vote its worth leaving in, even if its a regular yield for now and Health occurs in a later release.

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Health is a pretty big concept and I really don't want to start it now.
Leaving out Herbs and Medicine now, does not mean, that we could not build them in in a later release.

But for now, I don't think it is a good idea to implement the yields, if the feature is completely missing.

orlanth said:

Can you tell us a little about how the Domestic Market will work with buildings? I'm guessing that after making a building that enables domestic sale of a good, it enables that good to be selectable for domestic sale in the Domestic Market window.

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Currently I am thinking about the following.

1. Different social classes (from UnitType) have different demands.
2. Tavern will unlock selling of Alcohol to your own citizen. (Beer, Wine and Rum)
3. Market will unlock selling of goods like Luxury Goods, Coats, Cloth, Coffee, Cigars ...
4. Generally only some goods will be sold by Domestic Market. (Strategic goods and most raw materials won't.)
5. There will be a pop-up screen with informations and possibility to control Domestic Market.
6. Prices on Domestic Market will depend on availability in City but also prices in Europe.

But before I start this, I want to have the base for Economy done.

orlanth said:

I like the concepts of Wine, Beer and Rum. Similar to having several uses for Cloth and Coats buildings, it might be possible to have those produced in the existing Distillery buildings.

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We still need to discuss how Wine and Beer can be introduced, without destroying balancing of Terrains.

But let us do that, after "Sheep, Cattle, Wool, Hides, Woolcloth and Leathergoods" is implemented.

Ok, that sounds like a good plan. I have put some building nifs in the Transfer/buildings folders so take a look at those to possibly use in the new buildings you're adding.

orlanth said:

I have put some building nifs in the Transfer/buildings folders so take a look at those to possibly use in the new buildings you're adding.

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I already have graphics for most of the buildings I need and will implement the feature with those.
But if Schmiddie or you want to improve / exchange graphics later on, feel free to do so.

I will have a look at these graphics and give a feedback then.

raystuttgart said:

@team:

However, I also see how many open tasks we still have for Release 1.
(Does not sound much, but there is a lot of open work in these tasks.)

1. Finishing New Yields and Productionlines (incl. Screens, MYC/P, AI improvements, eventually FFs, ...)
2. Finishing Storms and Winds
3. Custom House (Pop-Up-)Screen
4. Domestic Markets
5. Improving and Writing English texts
6. Improving and Writing Game Concepts (Colopedia)
7. Finishing Translation into German
8. Finishing Translation into French
9. Fine Balancing of Features
10. Balancing of Generation of new Bonus Ressources
11. Fixing Bonus Ressources Walruss and Seals for Colopedia and creation of better graphics for Sea Otters

optional:
12. Cleaning up buttons and icons currently as single .dds (using atlasses)
13. Some more (Python-)Events

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I'll start working on the writing and improving of English text. I can also take a look at game concepts for the colopedia, but I may need some general clarification on some topics. I'll let the team know.

colonialfan said:

I'll start working on the writing and improving of English text.

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Perfect.

colonialfan said:

I can also take a look at game concepts for the colopedia, but I may need some general clarification on some topics.

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Great.
If you have questions, just let us know.

@team:

Do you think that events (Python) occur often enough, or should we slightly increase the chances per round for events ?

Currently there is a 1% chance.
Maybe we could set it to 2% ?

Hm, I think the event for native mercenaries occur very often - sometimes every 2nd round. Other events (don't know if Python or Diplo) are rare.

Schmiddie said:

Hm, I think the event for native mercenaries occur very often - sometimes every 2nd round.

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Every event with a Diplo-Dialog is DLL.

Native Mercenaries will occure quite often of course, if you play with our new Mapsize Gigantic.
(Since there are simply much more Native Nations, than in TAC.)

For now, I am talking about the Python Events only.

Should those events occur more often ?

I guess it could be good to try 2% event chance, since we have more events and I can gradually add more. Maybe this event frequency could be made configurable in GlobalDefinesAlt xml, in case that seems too often for some players?

orlanth said:

Maybe this event frequency could be made configurable in GlobalDefinesAlt xml, in case that seems too often for some players?

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It is already configurable in XML.
(Civ4EraInfos.xml)

What is a "Diplo-Dialog" ???

I thought every event has a "dialog"... However, you will find a good solution...

Schmiddie said:

What is a "Diplo-Dialog" ???

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Oh ok, I did not know, that I need to explain that.

A Diplo-Dialog is something like this.

So whenever you see the face of a leader, it is a Diplo-Dialog. (Diplo = Diplomacy)
The logic behid those is always coded in DLL.
Each of them is basically a feature of its own and independent of other Events.

A Python Event will look like this.

DLL-Diplo-Events (with Diplo-Dialogs) and Python-Events are totally different things.