Burning a Great Engineer for Little Reward

I have well over 1000 hours in this game, I play hemispheres-large-emperor-epic, and have had this happen to me once. I was tower of Pisa. I love this one, and I often try to have a GE ready to pop it once i get the tech, then take the GE from pisa to either build globe or forbidden palace depending on what I'm shooting for. I was like "whaaaa??", but I didn't cry, or reload, I spent the gold (yes you get gold) to take a CS of the guy that beat me to it ;)
 
Stupid question about GE in late game: aren't they supposed to finish the wonder in one turn? So why do I need 2 or 3 engineers to complete a wonder such this bavarian-castle-I-can't-spell-the-name ? Not enough production in my cities?
 
Stupid question about GE in late game: aren't they supposed to finish the wonder in one turn? So why do I need 2 or 3 engineers to complete a wonder such this bavarian-castle-I-can't-spell-the-name ? Not enough production in my cities?

No; the amount of production you get from a GE depends on the city's population. On standard speed, the formula is 300+(30*population).
 
no, not only that, the AI "sees" your research bar (it always knows what turn you are going to finish researching the tech; sometimes it will finish the wonder the turn you finish the tech and if you were stupid enough to burn a GE on it right away, it will get wasted), and it sees exactly how many turns left to complete the wonder, way before spies become available.

The way AIs do it is if they beat you to the tech, they might devote some turns on the wonder, then go produce military or other things whatever... but it always calculate that it will beat you by one turn. (so it can be foiled by GS+GE one-two combo, or tree chop, or interfaith dialogue)

This is completely and utterly false.

I suggest you download the BNW SDK and check the code for yourself. The AI does NOT perform calculations of build times to ensure it beats you by 1 turn. This is absolute paranoid rubbish.

The few areas that the AI cheats (except handicap cheats which everyone is aware of anyway), are things that are extremely problematic to account for programmatically.

There are many areas of the game that human player has an advantage toward, that the AI does not; being first in the order of play is but one example.
 
The reason the AI can BEAT a player to a WONDER after a GE is burnt is because of the way production is calculated.

Anything that you will successfully build (ie 1 turn to go) occurs at the START of your next turn.

So when you burn your GE, the WONDER will be built at the START of your next turn. The AI however has already built the wonder by this time as at the end of their last turn they would have had 1 turn left to go.

So upon their next turn (which is in the same turn cycle as when you brunt the GE) they build the wonder and you get beaten to it.

If the game just let you build the wonder it would allow players to essentially go back in time and finish the wonder before the AI.

It is essentially a problem born out of the turn based nature of the game.

In this case I reluctantly agree that it is a little unfair on the human (or any AI player that does the same that turn). Providing a FAIR fix however is problematic.

For example say the AI (or a human in multiplayer) burnt a GE on the previous turn, why should your GE beat theirs ?

I think the only way to do it would be to give a gold bonus equal to the production expanded by the beaten CIV prior to the GE being expended, and then credit the HAMMERS to the players build queue for that city.

Personally I think GP should have to be either used the turn they are spawned (in terms of the abilities like BULB and PRODUCE) or be used within the ERA that they are spawned. As an aside I think this would solve many of the balance issues related to GP hoarding.

I don't believe there should be any undo, or rubbish like that. Players that want such a mechanic have one already with the load/save system.
 
Am I the only one who uses the engineers tile improvement?

No, I use them too, particularly early. But if there's a Wonder open and I get a GE I'm burning him for the Wonder 99.44% of the time, even if the Wonder isn't something I care about/will add to my VC... it's all about denying the AI. :lol:
 
This is completely and utterly false.

I suggest you download the BNW SDK and check the code for yourself. The AI does NOT perform calculations of build times to ensure it beats you by 1 turn. This is absolute paranoid rubbish.
Thank you for this. I've been itching to say exactly the same thing, only I've had no code-proven way of substantiating it.

The assertion that the AI adjusts its production to beat you by 1 turn absolutely does not correspond to my experiences. Such experiences include the occasional "let's be the absolute king of the world and get all the Wonders" games, in which I shamelessly and mercilessly reload and adjust my productivity to beat any AIs who reach Wonders before me (on Prince or King). In those kinds of games, the AI's hammer production remains absolutely static from one save/load "alternate reality" to another. The AI will build the Wonder in question on the exact same turn, each and every time, regardless of whether that results in beating me to it or losing it to me, and regardless of the number of turns ahead or behind in either case.
 
Thank you for this. I've been itching to say exactly the same thing, only I've had no code-proven way of substantiating it.

The assertion that the AI adjusts its production to beat you by 1 turn absolutely does not correspond to my experiences. Such experiences include the occasional "let's be the absolute king of the world and get all the Wonders" games, in which I shamelessly and mercilessly reload and adjust my productivity to beat any AIs who reach Wonders before me (on Prince or King). In those kinds of games, the AI's hammer production remains absolutely static from one save/load "alternate reality" to another. The AI will build the Wonder in question on the exact same turn, each and every time, regardless of whether that results in beating me to it or losing it to me, and regardless of the number of turns ahead or behind in either case.

No problem.

Probably should have toned down my response but people disseminating "facts" born out of perception bias and a tightly held belief that the AI is some Machiavellian nightmare out to sneakily beat them, is difficult to respond to placidly.

In short, your suspicions and observations were spot on.

BTW Yours was a clever means of testing the premise without code/logging help. Kudos.
 
The only reason I ever save a game: before burning a GE. And it happens a lot, in almost every single game even when I'm leading in tech and think it shouldn't be a problem but still save just in case... and surprise: the wonder was built in a far away land! It's never so much about losing a wonder but rather losing my GE. The turn based is not a justification, burn the GE and finish the building right there and then. If the AI was to finish on the same turn (the in between turn), GE should still have prevailed. Just make it efficient on the current turn and it's case closed.
 
I just think it's funny because what even happens to the Wonder you nearly built? Do people notice one little pebble missing and boycott it? Does the civ who actually built it sue you for copyright infringement so you have to dismantle it? Does the other civ steal yours and replace it with an inflatable one? :lol:
 
Here is what I think the solution should be:

If another civ is building it, and is within three turns of completion, the great engineer should warn you that someone else has almost finished it. (You would expect great engineers to know these things.)

You then have an option to proceed, or an option to cancel the order. If you cancel, you have to wait until next turn to do something else with the GE.

If you proceed you have a roughly 1 in 3 chance of not getting it since another civ is 1, 2, or 3 turns away.

If you decide to go for it and still lose your engineer, take your lumps.
 
I just think it's funny because what even happens to the Wonder you nearly built? Do people notice one little pebble missing and boycott it? Does the civ who actually built it sue you for copyright infringement so you have to dismantle it? Does the other civ steal yours and replace it with an inflatable one? :lol:
Heh, yes. This is yet another instance, among zillions, of realism failing to make sense within the context of gameplay. You're right, it's ridiculous to think that nearly built Wonders would suddenly be abandoned when someone else builds it first...but it's no more ridiculous than the basic idea of multiple civilizations competing to build (the same) Great Wonders.
 
Unfortunately, this would unbalance the game. Most of the civs in the game (including DLCs) don't have a wonder in the game, a few have multiple wonders (Greece, China, France, America, Egypt, India and England come to mind), and many of the remaining world wonders are from civs that are not in the game (Angkor Wat, CN Tower, Leaning Tower, Petra, Sydney Opera House, etc.)
 
Good grief, should there be no risk in the game?? I guess not if there are players that would cheat/reload so they don't encounter any.
 
Heh, yes. This is yet another instance, among zillions, of realism failing to make sense within the context of gameplay. You're right, it's ridiculous to think that nearly built Wonders would suddenly be abandoned when someone else builds it first...
Not to mention that they telepathically sense it from a hundred black/cloudy tiles away... ;)

Spoiler :
Imperator: Tell me -- what do we know about China, Advisor X?

Advisor: Ahem. They built the Great Library last week, my liege.

I: I see. Anything else?

A: Not really sir, no.

I: Not even a hint? What about their capital; if it built the wonder, surely you must at the very least know its name?

A: Nope.

I: What of their leader, then; is he or she a man or a woman? Cruel or kind; rich or poor? Enlighten me, X., and I will shower you with riches!

A: I'm afraid those riches will have to go unshowered for the moment, my lord, for I'm aware of neither the sex, wealth or the humane disposition of the Chinese leader. I only know that, whoever he or she is, he or she sure likes to build wonders.

I: I see. Remind me X, what do I pay you for again? And while you're at it, might you enlighten me as to how we know they build the Great Whatchamajig, when we know literally *NOTHING* else about them?

A: You pay me to amuse you with my ignorance, my lord (and I am well-paid indeed). As to China and their wonder, well I just had a feeling. A hunch. A real nasty chill in my left knee. Can always tell by that, huge monuments being built in faraway lands never fails to ail my knee sire.

I: I see, X. This time I'm definitely *not* amused -- since on this little HUNCH of yours -- on this CHILLY KNEE of yours -- I see that you CANCELED the building permit for OUR Great Library, which we had been building for THE BETTER PART OF 1,000 years! :mad::gripe: ('Not to mention that I'd already mortgaged the damned thing to pay for new trinkets to put in my beard', the king thought to himself.)

A: Yes my lord. Can't build what's been built before, naturally, so why waste any more time or hammers on it?

I: And why is it, X, that we cannot simply build a second Great Library?

A: Bed pardon, sir? What was that?

I: I *SAID* -- a SECOND Great Scroll Pile! To give us the SAME BONUSES as to the FILTHY CHINESE! Give me ONE GOOD REASON why it couldn't be done!

A: There's no need to shout, sire. I find it quite frightening. As to the question at hand, it would simply be unsportsmanslike. The better man, or woman, as it may be, has already won, so it would be most ill-mannered to continue the race.

I: We'll see how scared you'll be when you're BEHEADED! ... 'The race'? What do you mean, 'the race'? I don't recall signing up for one.

A: Oh, but you did, sire. Right before you were born--

I: BEFORE I WAS *BORN*?! WHAT ARE YOU, INSANE??! I WAS TOO BUSY *BEING UNBORN* THEN TO DO ANYTHING!!!

A: There you go with the shouting again. It's bad for your vocal chords; there's really no need for it. Yes sir; before you were born and you picked the settings.

I: The settings? I'm afraid I'm afraid to ask.

A: Yet I shall answer without trepidation (unwise as that may be). Yes sir, the settings. Right there in the Setup Screen.

I: Ok that's it; GUARDS! Behead this creep, then BEHEAD ME AS WELL, for I've HAD ENOUGH OF IT!!!11

:twitch::aargh::mwaha::drool::banana::suicide:

EDIT: Just realized that there's a pretty big flaw in this narrative, but I'm too tired to edit it. Can you spot what it is? ;)
 
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