Wonder plan

Chum said:

It's a 10% bump on total food, which makes it better than any other food boost in the game, including Landed Elite. 6 food from HG covers 3 citizens, period. 10% bump on total food means as soon as you reach 60 total food, you're ahead.

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No, you're not ahead then. You are at best beginning to catch up, and if the game is fast, you will have had less citizens on average during the turns that mattered.

You're running caravans/cargos to the capital right?

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Because you are building the ToA you're not building cargo ships until later. The ToA costs more than 1 cargo ship + 1 lighthouse so if you start with the ToA you have less food and less hammers than otherwise for a long time.

Ribannah said:

No, you're not ahead then. You are at best beginning to catch up, and if the game is fast, you will have had less citizens on average during the turns that mattered.


Because you are building the ToA you're not building cargo ships until later. The ToA costs more than 1 cargo ship + 1 lighthouse so if you start with the ToA you have less food and less hammers than otherwise for a long time.

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10 pop is about where the ToA is even with HG. 10 pop is not exactly difficult to achieve, and it's also right around the time you'd be building HG anyway. So, no, you're not starting to catch up, you're already ahead. IN EVERY CITY.

Furthermore, you're again confusing opportunity cost with the strength of the wonder itself. That's not what the discussion was about.

Even with opportunity cost I think it's one of the best wonders out there. It pays an ever-increasing dividend that scales very well with growth.

And no, 10 pop is not big at all, I manage to get around pop 30 pretty consistently in my MP games around turn 150-175, pop 40 if coastal.

Hanging Gardens feels like a consolation prize in comparison, but sometimes you can snag both

The issue with Temple of Artemis is that, for a wide game, happiness is a much bigger constraint than food for the first 140-150 turns. Once Ideology kicks in and happiness becomes easy ToA is truly great, but if you're going for sub-200 that gives you less than 50 turns to fully benefit.

If you could build the ToA at t140 you would do it 100% of the time. Unfortunately you need to build it earlier (barring conquest, which is why I said that conquering it might be a good idea), and you can't always find time to squeeze it in before the AI gets it.

My one sub-200 Prince SV (with 8-cities Poland Liberty) I didn't get ToA. But in that case there were a bazillion Maritime CS and food bonuses were available elsewhere. It really depends on the timing and map. If you can get lucky and build it/conquer it at a convenient time, I say go for it.

Like, building Temple of Artemis CAN be a bad play if you play badly. Doesn't mean it's a bad wonder. If you decide to build Temple of Artemis before Settlers, that's your fault, not the wonder's. If you decide that Cargo Ships must be hard-built and can only be built in your capital, and therefore building ToA comes at the expense of building Cargo Ships, that's your fault, not the wonder's.

I love how this thread morphed from "Which wonders should I build and when" to "Are the Hanging Gardens better than the Temple of Artemis". This is prince, there should not be a choice. It'll take the first 80 turns (on epic) to build basic infrastructure in the OP's 6-9 cities and the Great Library rush to national college, then they can build or conquer both whenever they want. The real choice is whether they want to open Tradition first to get faster border growth and 3 culture per turn before messing with liberty, and then it takes 4 total policies to get to Collective rule and speedy settlers instead of 3, and that delays things a little. If OP does that, he can build them both easily after NC, although I think pyramids are more important for a wide empire since tile improvements are a higher priority than wonders. If not, he gets to waste a policy opening tradition just to build the Hanging Gardens, which is unacceptable.

I've always thought Hanging Gardens was better for a tall empire with 3-5 cities as opposed to TOA being better for Wider empires with 6-9 cities? Free garden plus 6 food is great for 1 city with no happiness constraints, and 10% growth in all cities plus cheaper archers is perfect for major happiness problems caused by settling too many cities too quickly. Cheaper comp bows and cross bows are also good for dealing with cranky neighbors who are mad that you built 9 cities in your corner of the empire.

Also, TOA's placement in the tech tree is ridiculous, being right there at the bottom beckoning to be built before basic infrastructure as a giant n00b trap! I hate early wonders for this reason alone, the AI always gets them first above king/emperor, and if you are dumb enough to try and build them yourself Shaka's impi's will be knocking on your front door while you have nothing to defend with but a warrior, scout, and 400 gold from 30 turns of lost great library money (I exaggerated here, sorry in advance)...

I mean you can do anything you want on Prince. From building the Great Library (terrible wonder) to mixing Liberty and Tradition (terribly inefficient) to building every Wonder in your tech path.

Yes the OP was about Prince, but the conversation evolved on a natural tangent.

I mean you can do anything you want on Prince. From building the Great Library (terrible wonder) to mixing Liberty and Tradition (terribly inefficient) to building every Wonder in your tech path.

Yes the OP was about Prince, but the conversation evolved on a natural tangent.

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Damn right!
For some reason this game was even easier (wonderwise) that warlord (Ramsess was missing).
I did't get ToA (I was waaay to slow to develop archery - why would you rush it if you are Maya?).
But I got:
GL (felt olbiged), Oracle, Great wall (in the middle of defensive war! Just no one wanted it:/), Petra (no one wanted it), Colossus (no idea why), etc etc.
Basically everything (even HG - and yes, I opened Tradition as well as Liberty :/), except religious ones (but I got Stonehenge), and policy tied:/
I am slowly getting to SS parts now, 9 Cities, getting every wonder in my path, just to be EVIL.

Also whenever you make tourn assumption - remember that I play on Epic, so stuff takes longer

Chum said:

10 pop is about where the ToA is even with HG. 10 pop is not exactly difficult to achieve, and it's also right around the time you'd be building HG anyway. So, no, you're not starting to catch up, you're already ahead. IN EVERY CITY.

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It's certainly not difficult to get to 10 pop average in your cities. The point is that it takes too many turns compared to the length of a good game. And during all these turns, you fell further and further behind.

Before you can be ahead, you need to catch up. Before you've done that the game should already be over.

Furthermore, you're again confusing opportunity cost with the strength of the wonder itself. That's not what the discussion was about.

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The thread is about a wonder plan, so you need to take opportunity costs into account, as well as timing.

Ribannah said:

It's certainly not difficult to get to 10 pop average in your cities. The point is that it takes too many turns compared to the length of a good game. And during all these turns, you fell further and further behind.

Before you can be ahead, you need to catch up. Before you've done that the game should already be over.


The thread is about a wonder plan, so you need to take opportunity costs into account, as well as timing.

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Well, here's the hitch.

Not everyone is Tommy and finishes games in 45 turns.

Most people are going to play for 280-350ish turns.

So in that case, you're wrong. ToA is the better wonder and will be for the vast, vast majority of the game.

But please, keep lecturing everyone on how your superfast victories are the only way to play.

That was rude.

Chum said:

Most people are going to play for 280-350ish turns.

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Usually because they have an inferior wonder plan. Did it occur to you that the thread opener might want to improve their game?

Ribannah said:

That was rude.


Usually because they have an inferior wonder plan. Did it occur to you that the thread opener might want to improve their game?

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Who decides what's inferior? You? Or the person playing the game for their own enjoyment?

Get off your high horse.

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