Great people farm : farms or cottages?

People here all seem to advocate going for cottages in commerce cities, farms + mines in production cities and farms in Great People Farms (GPF). It all seems to make sense, but i've had a few instances now where it seems better to make cottages rather than farms in the GPF.

The main thing i look for in a GPF is food resources, and as many of them as possible. Then flood plains, then flat grassland. As few hills and as few plains as possible.

In my current game, i've just got the best GPF spot i've ever had. This was the spot of nearby Russia's capital, which i took over. It has 3 clams, 1 grassland cow and 1 plains horse. Then it has about 7 or 8 flat grasslands. Only one plains tile and no hills. Everything else is coast/ocean (good since i'm financial and have the Colossus).

Just from the city square and all 5 special ressources above, i'm at +12 food (would be at +13 by neglecting the horse, but i like the extra production). This is enough to pay for 6 specialists. Adding coast, ocean, or cottages wouldn't change this number. Adding grassland farms (pre-biology) would improve it by ½ specialist per farm.

Even though this city will be my main (you could say only) source of GP, and should obviously be focused towards that goal as much as possible, i still find myself leaning towards cottages.

Assume that happiness is not a factor (i intend to put the Globe Theater there). The city can then grow as big as possible, working all the tiles in its radius and using any excess food on specialists. The city will of course also have the National Epic, for maximum GP production.

I'll already be making lots of commerce from all the water tiles and the specialists themselves (factor in Representation as well), regardless of what i choose to do with my grassland. This means the city already needs to build libraries, markets, etc. regardless of what i do. It will also be a prime candidate for an academy either way. Since the infrastructure will be there to support commerce anyway, it seems to me like the grassland tiles will be better used as cottages, even though this is my GPF. Am i wrong?

This isn't the first time this happens to me either. It seems to me like more often than not, my GPF seems better equiped with cottages than with farms. Sure, with farms i may get 2 or 3 more GP during the course of the game. However, the extra science from the commerces would imo more than compensate for this.

Does anybody else feel the same way? Or does someone have good arguments for why i should still use farms?

You'll get better answers than mine, but with 5 resources (3 food) you will want this city to at least grow big enough to work them all. Depending on what your happiness/health situation is I'd either then turn this into a GPF immediately after working those 5 tiles or with the cottage potential you can just turn this into a science city, put cottages everywhere, & build granary/library/university/academy/(monistaries)/etc. to grow and pump out beakers.

I agree with farming/mass food for GPF cities but the one you have is SO good (as opposed to say just a floodplains city with 1-2 food resources) you can easily make it a huge science producer instead of 'just' a GPF. No matter what you do, nice city!

The point is that like i said, happiness will not be a factor for this city. Unhealthiness shouldn't be much of a problem either.

This being said, if i made it a science city, i would eventually end up with +12 food and no more tiles to work anyway. Then i'd have to add 6 scientists to add more science. So essentially you're proposing the same thing i am, i.e. to make it a GPF and a science city all in one.

I forgot to add that i also plan to move my palace there for Bureaucracy.

I personally would still focus entirely on farms. You only really want 1 city to be your great person factory - its inefficient to have more than one - so you might as well make it the optimal gpf. Going all farms is always going to be better for getting more gpp. The great thing about the progression of great people points needed at each interval is that its a fixed number. So, if you manage to attain a really huge number of great people points, eventually you will see that it starts taking a similar amount of turns for each great person, like around 2000+ gpp needed. I have achieved nearly 400gpp in a spot before, and that was pretty crazy nice, since you can use the great people, if nothing else, for a technology, which almost certainly yields more science than a science city with some towns and some farms.

I think the answer should be based on the civ that you are playing. For example, when I'm playing a financial civ such as Catherine of Russia, I like to build a lot of cottage along the river because it really doesn't take long before those big money bags start rolling in. I can't possibly get the same kind of income with the farming business (at least, not with the financial civ).

If you farm them all instead of making cottages, over the course of the game you're going to get a couple of extra GPs out of it, but those couple will come late enough that they don't really do as much. The early ones will come a couple of turns earlier, which can make a huge difference, but not enough to outweigh the benefits of cottaging a city like that.

I think you'll get far more use out of the city if you cottage it instead of farm it and give it a dual use science/GP city, especially if you're making it your capital and running Representation. Generally, it's better to single-specialize instead of double-specialize cities, but this one has so many resources available to it that it can handle the two jobs better than just giving it one and leaving the other to another city.

A+ombomb said:

The great thing about the progression of great people points needed at each interval is that its a fixed number. So, if you manage to attain a really huge number of great people points, eventually you will see that it starts taking a similar amount of turns for each great person, like around 2000+ gpp needed.

Click to expand...

Actually, it's the exact opposite. The bad thing about Great People is that no matter how many points it took to get the one you just did, it will cost more for the next one. The points needed are

100, 200, 300, ..., 900, 1000, 1200, 1400, ..., 2800, 3000, 3300, 3600, ...

And those are not the total points since the city was founded. Those are the "intervals", as you said.

This is why adding more GPP only adds a few GP during the span of an entire game, especially if you're already making plenty.

However, it does allow one to get said GP sooner, which does add to their value.

A+ombomb said:

I have achieved nearly 400gpp in a spot before, and that was pretty crazy nice, since you can use the great people, if nothing else, for a technology, which almost certainly yields more science than a science city with some towns and some farms.

Click to expand...

Not even close. Typically, a GP adds about 1000 beakers to a specific technology (which you may not even want, but that's another story). If that GP cost you 2000 GPP, then all you need to do to compensate his loss is produce 1 beaker for every 2 GPP lost. This means making 3 beakers for every 2 specialists lost. 2 scientists + 4 farms = 12 food + 12 beakers (with Representation) + 6 GPP = 12 food + 15 beakers. On the other hand, 6 towns = 12 food + a heck of a lot more than 15 beakers.

What you said is true for the early game when GP cost only a few hundred GPP, but here we're talking about producing a 20th GP instead of just 19, and the 20th GP really isn't worth all that much and costs a lot to produce.


Edit: typos.

Alright...question for all....

In great people farms...you most likely have limited production. Since that is the case, how do you ever build the wonders that accelerate GPP points???

This seems like a chicken before the egg problem. Then again...I'm a relative NOOB.

There is only one wonder than accelerates GPP - National Epic.

There are several options:
Cash rush (with Universal Suffrage)
Pop rush (with slavery)
Chop rush (with forests)
Or just assign a few citizens to mined hills until the Epic is built.

Engineers (or beefed up 2 hammer wielding priests) can also help. Since we're talking about a city full of specialists, those shouldn't be a problem having.

Zombie69 said:

In my current game, i've just got the best GPF spot i've ever had. This was the spot of nearby Russia's capital, which i took over. It has 3 clams, 1 grassland cow and 1 plains horse. Then it has about 7 or 8 flat grasslands. Only one plains tile and no hills. Everything else is coast/ocean (good since i'm financial and have the Colossus).

Just from the city square and all 5 special ressources above, i'm at +12 food (would be at +13 by neglecting the horse, but i like the extra production). This is enough to pay for 6 specialists. Adding coast, ocean, or cottages wouldn't change this number. Adding grassland farms (pre-biology) would improve it by ½ specialist per farm.

Click to expand...

Very Nice City. The temptation with amazing city sites like this is to turn it into a commerce city instead, as commerce cities feel stronger that GP cities. Good city sites for one are often good for the other. So.... you need to decide - do I want another commerce city (you have lots already I hope), or a GP factory.

Zombie69 said:

Even though this city will be my main (you could say only) source of GP, and should obviously be focused towards that goal as much as possible, i still find myself leaning towards cottages.

Click to expand...

Do not be tempted by the cottage side Luke. One of the nice things about a GP factory is its so cheap to set up the infrastructure. Ignore the commerce. Walk away and pretend its just not there. You need Lighthouse, granary, National Epic and enough happiness and health buildings. That's it. if you really have nothing better to do then start a library - but there is no hurry.

Zombie69 said:

Assume that happiness is not a factor (i intend to put the Globe Theater there). The city can then grow as big as possible, working all the tiles in its radius and using any excess food on specialists. The city will of course also have the National Epic, for maximum GP production.

I'll already be making lots of commerce from all the water tiles and the specialists themselves (factor in Representation as well), regardless of what i choose to do with my grassland. This means the city already needs to build libraries, markets, etc. regardless of what i do. It will also be a prime candidate for an academy either way. Since the infrastructure will be there to support commerce anyway, it seems to me like the grassland tiles will be better used as cottages, even though this is my GPF. Am i wrong?

Click to expand...

If you're going for a commerce city you do aim to work every tile. If its a GP city you don't. Only work tiles that make 3 food or more. Otherwise you are wasting GPPs. Letting the city grow just to work another farmed plains does not add any GPP after growth, as your food surplus remains the same, and the food you used to grow could have been used to support another specialist for all those turns. The city size you're aiming at thus tends to be a bit smaller - so the happiness and health issues are easier to manage.

Looking at your city you have (Pre Biology) a food excess of 13 from the city square + resources, and a further 8 from the farmed grasslands = 21.
So the final city configuration will be 12 pop working the land, with 10 specialaists and 1 excess food to slowly grow intot he plains farm and the horse resurce. Unusually it is actaully worth building Shakespears theater in this GP factory as there are so many grasslands.
Post Biology the numbers get even better:
Food excess = 13 + 16 + 2 (for the 2 plains - you farm the horse - no really.... you do unless you have no horse resource in your empire yet)
= 31 excess food > 14 pop working the land and 15 or 16 specialaists.

Zombie69 said:

This isn't the first time this happens to me either. It seems to me like more often than not, my GPF seems better equiped with cottages than with farms. Sure, with farms i may get 2 or 3 more GP during the course of the game. However, the extra science from the commerces would imo more than compensate for this.

Does anybody else feel the same way? Or does someone have good arguments for why i should still use farms?

Click to expand...

The Farmed GP factroy will probably be up and running faster than the cottages of the Commerce city alternative, unless the Russians kindly left a bunch of vilalges and towns behind for you.

Bottom line: if you're going for a GP factory then go for it in style, but if you're more tempted by a commerce city then do that in style instead.

The Commerce city would eventually generate quite a few GPP as a by product, but most of the excess food will probably be used in growth and combating unheathiness as you grow faster than you can handle. the GPP's will come late - wen GPs are less useful.
The GP city would not grow into unheathiness - you'd stall its growth with extra specialists at the heath limit to avoid wasting food.

Thanks a lot for your analysis robinm. Much appreciated. I'm still a newbie when it comes to GPF (as you could tell), so there's some very useful info in there for me.

There are currently no farms there and no cottages. 4 of the grassland tiles have forest on them, allowing me to rush some key buildings (all those forests were prechopped to one turn away from hammer production, hoping to snatch the Great Library there with them in one turn and adding 2 free specialists this way, but unfortunately someone finished it before that, so they're still prechopped and ready to produce). I already have pop rushed a library (prerequisite for the Great Library) and a factory (to make those chops worth more when they complete), along with a state religion pushed there with a missionary under Organized Religion (also to make the chops worth more).

I get what you're saying and you're right, what i proposed wasn't the best way to make a GPF, if only for the health issue. So basically, a GPF should always be inland, right? This way you can have max farms and not waste otherwise good sea squares. I thought any square that produces 2 food could be added without problem, but i didn't think unhealthiness could be an issue (i've got lots of health bonuses, but i didn't count and there still might not be enough).

There's also as you mention the issue of getting those GP now rather than later. Although at +12 food, i reckon it wouldn't take all that long to grow up to max size. It's true that if i wait until max size to add the specialists, the +12 will go down to +10, than +8, all the way to +2, and that last specialist will take a while to get at +2 and 25 pop.

All right, i think you've convinced me. This city might be better off as a pure science city, with the GPF placed elsewhere. It's just that i don't see any better place for it elsewhere in my empire. And this science city will still end up with 6 specialists eventually. Isn't that a waste if the National Epic is situated elsewhere?

What constitutes a good GPF? I don't think i have anything else that qualifies in my empire. In my games, should i try founding a city with multiple food resources and lots of grassland and flood plains, and purposely let it overlap other cities as far as all other tiles are concerned, since i won't use them in the GPF anyway?

As for Moscow presented above, the question was rather academic since there is no way for me to get fresh water there, even with civil services, so farms are out of the question. I'm researching civil services now so biology is too far off to think about that also. I guess i was just trying to convince myself that it was still a superb GPF anyway, and that cottages were better than farms anyway. Maybe i was wrong.

I'll post pics of the city and the entire empire later for comments.

In the meantime, other comments are welcome, especially about what constitutes a good site for a GPF and how to decide between making one or making a science city instead.

DaveMcW said:

There is only one wonder than accelerates GPP - National Epic.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand this. I thought all wonders give you some GP points and thus would help a GPF? I thought that if you have a GPF, nearly all your GPs will come from there, so GP points from wonders in other cities are largely wasted. Hence, I thought the best strategy was to concentrate wonders in your GP city.

Simon Appleton said:

I'm not sure I understand this. I thought all wonders give you some GP points and thus would help a GPF? I thought that if you have a GPF, nearly all your GPs will come from there, so GP points from wonders in other cities are largely wasted. Hence, I thought the best strategy was to concentrate wonders in your GP city.

Click to expand...

All wonders do generate GPP. DaveMcW was just talking about wonders that accelerate the GPP by adding a GP bonus. The national wonder National Epic adds +100% to the GP rate in the city from which it was built. And the world Wonder The Parthenon adds +50% to the GP rate in all of your cities.

I often have a GPF but then can still generate a few GP from other cities. It's all about micromanagement though. Often my capital will be my main GPF, but then I build wonders and create specific specialists in other cities so that I can ensure the production of a specific GP. Usually GE's.

So all this said...GPFs rely almost soley on Specialist GP points per turn (and of course the National Epic)?

How many GP points, on average, are getting generated per turn in a good GP Farm?

With every possible bonus and 7 specialists you can get over 100GPP.

If I'm not focusing my traits or civics on great people, it's more typical to get around 60GPP.

Is it better to concentrate your wonders in one city, so you generate GPP fasters? Or is it better to seperate your wonders to different cities according to type (i.e. engineer, artist, merchant, scientist), that way you get less GP pollution?

If you want an artist, merchant, or scientist; you should be using a GP farm with no wonders at all.

If you want an Engineer it does make sense to specialize wonders, since you are only allowed 1 specialist (Forge) for most of the game.

DaveMcW said:

With every possible bonus and 7 specialists you can get over 100GPP.

If I'm not focusing my traits or civics on great people, it's more typical to get around 60GPP.

Click to expand...

I think i once had a city producing 200 per turn or so. Was philosophical, had all the right bonuses and lots of wonders. It wasn't even late in the game.

gdub44 said:

Alright...question for all....

In great people farms...you most likely have limited production. Since that is the case, how do you ever build the wonders that accelerate GPP points???

This seems like a chicken before the egg problem. Then again...I'm a relative NOOB.

Click to expand...

That is something I was going to comment on reading the other posts A few people have said just go for food for your GP city - I tend rather to go for a balance between food and production - and the reason is that a high production city is better able to build wonders.

Normally, I try from the very start to identify a couple of cities as culture-cities, because then I have the option of a cultural victory if I later decide that's what I want. And obviously I want those cities to be high-production ones so I can as far as possible build all my wonders in those cities. And a by-product is that those cities will end up producing lots of great people anyway. So then it's an issue of trying to get the food up so I can add a couple of specialists (a) to speed up GP production a little, and (b) to try to bias the probabilities in favour of whichever GP types I particularly want.

The only slight annoyance with that approach is I usually end up with a lot wonders that emphasize great prophets and I tend to find prophets of very limited usefulness once you've built all the religious shrines you can. (I choose my wonders primarily because I can really use the unique benefit of that wonder, secondarily based on a judgement about how likely I am to be able to actually build it before the AI does, and only 3rd on what GP type it yields)