SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

mabraham said:
More specifically, the granary stores half the food for the old bin size rounded down - so Quick and Epic are a bit harder, because they have food bins that have sizes that are not even.
Click to expand...

In every sense, quick speed is a horrible game speed. :lol:
So much negative handicaps compared to other speeds, especially those ugly 2-turns road and 3-turns chops and fast culture pop, supposedly designed for easing multiplayer games.
Thx for the info.
 
mabraham said:
We're not "losing" food. This is trouble reconciling a model with reality. Usually that means that the input data or the structure of the model is wrong. Neither of those are a serious problem for the plan in Washington, which is to grow fast while working as many grassland cottages as are available. That doesn't require much/any further detail in the plan, or an accurate model.

We have limited time and the ability of multiple people to follow lots of separate threads of discussion is also limited. I think we need to keep in mind the need to prioritise well and keep focus. :)
Click to expand...

I understand we do not lose food. But that single deviation in values at 9th pop growth made me think (if one assumes the other values are correct) there was some hidden mechanism as "rounded down" I should reconsider to avoid "food loss". I never paid attention to super micro in the past, so this is new for me.
My model was wrong and I am still wrong with one of my last post. I can make blunders. :) :)

By choosing fights, I mean PPP vs the rest. I know you are eagerly waiting for my turn-set. I can't do miracles as night is last realm I have to produce the Stuff.
Why am I here, now, because I have small hole in my schedule that is about to end.
 
bcool said:
Okay great I never realized this is how research overflow works... I will attempt to do a calculation...

[...]

Getting currency a turn earlier also lets us trade it for perhaps calendar a turn earlier (unlikely we will be able to trade for it, but maybe) (and would perhaps get us some spare gold as well). Calendar a turn earlier might be significant since we could improve the spice perhaps instead of a cottage for the capital. That is maybe 2? commerce and 1 hammer? difference a turn earlier and perhaps the happiness would be significant or at the very least it is another resource to trade away.

And Tachy why are you staying up so late if you have a long day today and might play tonight :nono: :)
Click to expand...

I knew I can count on you on such more precise considerations. Why on earth I wanted to stir up such discussions: because compared to most technologies, Currency is a boosting tech. The choice is a bit delicate. Nonetheless, we had to pounder the value of such choice. That is why I unearth that post. And this won't be last time we will encounter such boni. CS is another one thanks to CoL and Theology, but that one is another tech booster where the choice is obvious (Bureaucracy asap).

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Why am I stretching so far into night, because I find hard to find time (especially with the game along) other thant the early nights.
The PPP was done not during daylight. :mischief:
What can I do; I am determined to make my job and not flee once again like a bastard.
 
shulec said:
I will admit that I almost never build walls. Walls are 50 hammers, 25 with stone. An archer is 25 hammers. If Mansa is headed for us, he will surely have catapults. If we have a wall in place, he will be an idiot and bombard us for several turns while we whip a garrison full of troops.

We don't have to build the wall now, but if we see him coming, this is a must. We really need some intel on his potetial stack. I bet they are 20 turns away, so no hurry. If we go into Caste System before we know his war target, we need a wall for the insurance turns.
Click to expand...

Last comment: I will incorporate little mister axeman mandate into my PPP. His new mandate is to fogbust south-west and take a peek on those two fiendish "backstabbers".

I see most are worried by the possible DoW.
So I join in the mass panic. When do you intent to return slavery. W/O or W/ a GA?


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Another comment I wanted to point it out yesterday:
bcool, why do want so much to worker steal at this point? (with a chariot and a axeman). We are targeting a fast diplo victory that is not cooked like in HoF. We don't even know who will be our friends to vote for us yet.
Without random personalities, a joao around would lead us to the right path, but now we know zilch. :)
 
Quote:
T108: (28/34 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 2*Cottages, 2*lake tiles ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, Spy (10/40)
T109: (19/36 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 3*Cottages, 2*lake tiles ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, Spy (15/40) [8th POP]
So if I follow the rule of thumb you said:

28/34+9/34=37/34 ==> 3 OF :Food:
Granary bonus: ½(34)=17 ==> (17+3)/36 = 21/36 disrupting with real value up there: 19/36 .

Why on earth am I a nonsense.
Click to expand...

I agree that this point is minor and of little importance as mabraham has explained. However to calm Tachy's mind there does seem to be problem with the model
Perhaps because we have 1 unhealthiness in the test game?

for when washington is 7 pop and works sheep (5 food) corn (5 food) cows (3 food) 2 grass cottages (4 food) 2 lake tiles (4 food) and the center tile 2 food washington produces...

5+5+3+4+4+2 = 23 food - 14 food eaten = 9 food produce
Granary bonus: ½(34)=17 ==> (17+3)/36 = 21/36 disrupting with real value up there: 19/36 .
Click to expand...
We should have 20/36 since 17+3 = 20 . I don't know why it is 19 instead of 20.

But as mabraham suggests we really can't worry about these tiny details when we need to play turn sets faster. I and I assume the team is willing to accept something a little less than perfect. Do the best you can without a perfect model of the food in washington.
 
comments in blue
Last comment: I will incorporate little mister axeman mandate into my PPP. His new mandate is to fogbust south-west and take a peek on those two fiendish "backstabbers".
hunt barbarians and keep a eye on the backstabbers.
I see most are worried by the possible DoW.
So I join in the mass panic. When do you intent to return slavery. W/O or W/ a GA?
There is no mass panic and no we are not going to use a Golden Age to switch to slavery. There was a suggestion to whip the chariot so the courthouse is built earlier and we can build an axe and spear a little quicker. I think if the threat is real then we take the other actions suggested after the axe and the spear, like build a wall with the OF of the spear build. That would finish before the stack could possibly get to us. In no case can I imagine us wanting to use a golden age to switch to slavery.


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Another comment I wanted to point it out yesterday:
bcool, why do want so much to worker steal at this point? (with a chariot and a axeman). We are targeting a fast diplo victory that is not cooked like in HoF. We don't even know who will be our friends to vote for us yet.
Without random personalities, a joao around would lead us to the right path, but now we know zilch.
Our plan all along is to kill the eastern witches. I'm perhaps incorrectly assuming most of the AI do not like the eastern witches, so they won't care if we DOW them. Stealing workers from the eastern witches is good all around. We get workers, we deny our future target those workers. If we can DOW without diplo hits to other AI, then worker stealing is something I definitely think we should consider very strongly. It might be harder to get a ceasefire however against a team AI that has significant power, but it is still something to strongly consider.
Click to expand...

By the way I want to cancel the iron trade to the eastern witches as soon as possible. No sense letting them build swords if we can prevent it.
 
The PPP seems to be almost done, so let me say I agree as I didn't comment on it before. I am very keen to see the progress and new stuff revealed. Good luck Tachy, and may the force be with you ;).

A thought of mine:
Marble city doesn't seem to have a bright production future, so I would suggest devoting one of the workers from Washington for a mini cottage spam party after the job around Wash. is done.
 
Tachywaxon said:
T105: (25/32 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, Cottage, 2*lake tiles ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, Spy (0/40) [ANARCHY!!!]
T106: (25/32 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, Cottage, 2*lake tiles ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, Spy (0/40)
T107: (19/34 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 2*Cottages, 2*lake tiles ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, Spy (5/40) [7th POP]
T108: (28/34 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 2*Cottages, 2*lake tiles ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, Spy (10/40)
T109: (19/36 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 3*Cottages, 2*lake tiles ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, Spy (15/40) [8th POP]
T110: (28/36 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 3*Cottages, 2*lake tiles ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, Spy (20/40)
T111: (19/38* FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 5*Cottages, RPH ; +9 HAMMERS, +7 FOOD, Spy (25/40) [9th POP]
T112: (26/38 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 5*Cottages, RGH ; +8 HAMMERS, +8 FOOD, Spy (34/40)
T113: (34/38 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 6*Cottages ; +5 HAMMERS, +9 FOOD, 2 HAMMER OF, Research? (will see)[Spy built!]
T114: (24/40 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 6*Cottages, RGH ; +8 HAMMERS, +8 FOOD, Research. [10th POP]
T112: (32/40 FOOD) Sheeps, Corn, Cows, 7*Cottages (plain cottage...the new one); +6 HAMMERS, +8 FOOD, Research?
Click to expand...

Looking at the whole picture, the numbers for the food bin are wrong going from T106 to T107. Food would actually go 25/32, 18/34, 27/34, 19/36, 28/36, 19/38... The origin of Tachy's confusion seems to be an arithmetic error earlier on. I believe the attached PDF from my simulation spreadsheet illustrates a valid model.
 
@bcool.

Just returned at home.

Fast comments in regards to your blue comment screen:

Yes, I had intention to hunt barbs. Fogbusting expression was poorly used.
I exaggerated the term mass panic. Switch would be done at the end of a GA, not at the beginning as logics obliges us to abuse +100:gp:.
However, I was unsure about the how and when of the switch, but that is out of my control, so let's pass.
Ah yes, I understand those intentions I noticed about war preparations. I think those discussions belonged to the time I was away and I only perceived the tip of the iceberg.
War for later. Do not belong to my turn-set, so sorry for the digression.

Oh alright, I forgot the iron gift. Cancellation is most logical knowing the receiver.

See ya later. :hatsoff: I have a little brother hungry to death. :D
 
mabraham said:
Looking at the whole picture, the numbers for the food bin are wrong going from T106 to T107. Food would actually go 25/32, 18/34, 27/34, 19/36, 28/36, 19/38... The origin of Tachy's confusion seems to be an arithmetic error earlier on. I believe the attached PDF from my simulation spreadsheet illustrates a valid model.
Click to expand...

Most pleased for the hardwork. ;)
Likely enough, I am not ready to combine intense micro and rough PPP.
Next time, I must be more careful.
 
Walter_Wolf said:
The PPP seems to be almost done, so let me say I agree as I didn't comment on it before. I am very keen to see the progress and new stuff revealed. Good luck Tachy, and may the force be with you ;).

A thought of mine:
Marble city doesn't seem to have a bright production future, so I would suggest devoting one of the workers from Washington for a mini cottage spam party after the job around Wash. is done.
Click to expand...

It is already compiled and integrated in my PPP. Although full of holes in food bin, the development of Washington was experimentally observed, thus unflawed...supposedly.
 
Note that Mansa's culture is 26 tiles away, so his stack can't arrive before then. Also, Shaka is sending us a Confucian missionary, which suggests we may not be a military target. Yes, we have low score and power, but South is rather less happy with East than with us.

Anyway, the possible spread of Confucianism highlights that there may be a clock ticking about where Taoism will spawn. When are we expecting to bulb Philo? What will our largest non-religion city be at the time? Ideally, we want GPfarm to be as large as possible at that time to maximize its chance of being the Tao holy city.
 
Last comment: I have the strong willing to play my turn-set tonight. Nonetheless, nothing will be accomplished in a hurry. Of course, at one moment, the holes in the PPP will be filled and I will make pointers where the changes were applied.

If (big IF) I find time, I may play my PPP on a rough test game, compile science bin by each turn and compile to see what is up to.
mabraham, last thing I ask out of you, what do you think about the small ~37 freebee beakers thanks to the overflow trick. Because of the tech used for overflow, I am terribly torn apart. I am more and more leaning towards Currency even though I was the one who proposed the trick.

Okay, see ya. ;)
 
mabraham said:
Anyway, the possible spread of Confucianism highlights that there may be a clock ticking about where Taoism will spawn. When are we expecting to bulb Philo? What will our largest non-religion city be at the time? Ideally, we want GPfarm to be as large as possible at that time to maximize its chance of being the Tao holy city.
Click to expand...

The sad thing is most city developments are already settled in my PPP. I won't take the risk to wait other turns to let grow a city to position the holy grounds. Unfortunately, atl this is random and we must compound with the result. ;)
 
Tachywaxon said:
Last comment: I have the strong willing to play my turn-set tonight. Nonetheless, nothing will be accomplished in a hurry. Of course, at one moment, the holes in the PPP will be filled and I will make pointers where the changes were applied.

If (big IF) I find time, I may play my PPP on a rough test game, compile science bin by each turn and compile to see what is up to.
mabraham, last thing I ask out of you, what do you think about the small ~37 freebee beakers thanks to the overflow trick. Because of the tech used for overflow, I am terribly torn apart. I am more and more leaning towards Currency even though I was the one who proposed the trick.

Okay, see ya. ;)
Click to expand...

Currency first is normally right. I assume no AI that we might steal from is researching it. bcool's calculations seem to support Currency first.
 
Tachywaxon said:
The sad thing is most city developments are already settled in my PPP. I won't take the risk to wait other turns to let grow a city to position the holy grounds. Unfortunately, atl this is random and we must compound with the result. ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah. On second thoughts, since the spawn of the holy city is probabilistic, we can't influence it by more than a small amount at this stage. So forget about it, except that we obviously bulb Philo ASAP before any AI missionary can spread in GPFarm...
 
Re: GPFarm max pop? to increase odds of being holy city
I would rather have a few scientists and accelerate currency rather than subtly affect the random generated location of taoism.

So I don't think Tachy has to tweak her micro on GPFarm.

Philosophy
is due T110. with the great scientist out of gems city.

currency overflow or not
depends on the research and gold situation. I suspect getting enough gold to go 100% research and getting to within 1 science of currency the turn before will delay currency 2 turns, so I think the overflow trick isn't worth it in this case. I leave it up to Tachy as she will see the research and gold numbers in the real game and can decide if it is worth it or not.

Re: playing soon.

I'm happy with Tachy playing soon even if we don't see all the micro. Would be nice to see latest comments incorporated into the PPP however.
 
Walter_Wolf said:
The PPP seems to be almost done, so let me say I agree as I didn't comment on it before. I am very keen to see the progress and new stuff revealed. Good luck Tachy, and may the force be with you ;).

A thought of mine:
Marble city doesn't seem to have a bright production future, so I would suggest devoting one of the workers from Washington for a mini cottage spam party after the job around Wash. is done.
Click to expand...

Marble city with a few farms can whip out quite a few boats/military units for us. I doubt cottages will be in its future.
 
bcool said:
By the way I want to cancel the iron trade to the eastern witches as soon as possible. No sense letting them build swords if we can prevent it.
Click to expand...

We know whom to blame if the Eastern Witches muster a several Swordsmen! Though I understood the purpose, I never liked this trade. Giving a strategic resource to our "worst" enemy never made that much sense to me, even for just 10t. Sorry for the digression. :devil:

However, our Axemen can handle East's Swordsmen and our Chariots can try to rip apart East's Axemen.

I do believe that shulec's idea of building Walls in Isengard has some merit, probably after building a courthouse.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
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