One state, one language - a Central European invention or condition imposed upon it?

Louis XXIV said:

But Eastern Europe wasn't the entire Jewish diaspora, which was my point. I realize it made sense for a large group, but it couldn't establish itself as universal. It would be excluding a large group that way.

I'm certainly not entering this debate to suggest what was the best course of action, such normative thinking isn't really helpful in a history discussion. However, as a discussion of why Hebrew was the only artificial language to succeed, I think the fact that there was no other mutually intelligible language was a large factor in explaining its success.

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I think it was the Israeli satirist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephraim_Kishon who once wrote that Israel is the only country in the world where the mothers learn the language from their children.

But Ephraim Kishon spoke Hungarian as his native tongue, he couldn't speak Hebrew nor Yiddish.

Another good illustration of the fact that Yiddish was also falling out of use by that time.

Carolus I said:

Yiddish which is derived from German

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Correct. Yiddish emerged in western part of the language area of Mittelhochdeutsch dialects - that is, in the Rheinland (including also what is now Nordrhein). Jews had immigrated to that region already in Roman times, from the 1st century CE to the 4th century CE. In the 4th century CE the two largest Jewish communities in that region existed in Roman cities of Colonia Agrippina (modern Köln) and Mogontiacum (modern Mainz). Together with the fall of the Roman Empire and Germanic expansion in the 5th - 6th centuries CE, Germanic polities took control of that area. And Roman Jews living there gradually adopted a Germanic vernacular as their language of communication. Later, with Jewish migrations eastward (often since the 11th century caused by pogroms and expulsions), the language spread farther. Rheinland as the place of origin of Yiddish is quite certain, but how exactly did that language later spread throughout Jewish communicties in much of Europe, is more mysterious. Especially if we assume the theory about mostly Khazar (rather than mostly Roman-Jewish) origin of Ashkenazi Jews. Plus, we know for sure that Jewish communities in Northern and Eastern Europe originally used also other languages, not only Yiddish. But later Yiddish largely replaced them.

Some other Latin-speaking, Roman cities - with or without Jewish communities prior to the 5th century CE - which later became Germanic-speaking, were for example Bonna (Bonn), Augusta Treverorum (Trier), Noviomagus (Speyer), Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg), Castra Regina (Regensburg), Basilea (Basel), Constantia (Konstanz), Argentoratum (Strasbourg), etc. Those were the oldest cities within East Francia (a precursor of the HRE) as of 843 CE.

Domen said:

But Ephraim Kishon spoke Hungarian as his native tongue, he couldn't speak Hebrew nor Yiddish.

Another good illustration of the fact that Yiddish was also falling out of use by that time.

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According to the article in the wikipedia he learnt Hebrew after immigrating to Israel and later wrote articles for a newspaper in Hebrew. He was also fluent in German. His surname (Hoffmann) indicates a German descent, but there is not information in the wikipedia whether German was among his native languages.

Domen said:

Correct. Yiddish emerged in western part of the language area of Mittelhochdeutsch dialects - that is, in the Rheinland (including also what is now Nordrhein). Jews had immigrated to that region already in Roman times, from the 1st century CE to the 4th century CE. In the 4th century CE the two largest Jewish communities in that region existed in Roman cities of Colonia Agrippina (modern Köln) and Mogontiacum (modern Mainz). Together with the fall of the Roman Empire and Germanic expansion in the 5th - 6th centuries CE, Germanic polities took control of that area. And Roman Jews living there gradually adopted a Germanic vernacular as their language of communication. Later, with Jewish migrations eastward (often since the 11th century caused by pogroms and expulsions), the language spread farther. Rheinland as the place of origin of Yiddish is quite certain, but how exactly did that language later spread throughout Jewish communicties in much of Europe, is more mysterious. Especially if we assume the theory about mostly Khazar (rather than mostly Roman-Jewish) origin of Ashkenazi Jews. Plus, we know for sure that Jewish communities in Northern and Eastern Europe originally used also other languages, not only Yiddish. But later Yiddish largely replaced them.

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Another interesting example for an exported Jewish language is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaeo-Spanish, which is basically the Spanish of 16th century spoken by the Jewish population who were expelled at that time.

Domen said:

Some other Latin-speaking, Roman cities - with or without Jewish communities prior to the 5th century CE - which later became Germanic-speaking, were for example Bonna (Bonn), Augusta Treverorum (Trier), Noviomagus (Speyer), Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg), Castra Regina (Regensburg), Basilea (Basel), Constantia (Konstanz), Argentoratum (Strasbourg), etc. Those were the oldest cities within East Francia (a precursor of the HRE) as of 843 CE.

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Indeed the oldest German cities are those which were founded by the Romans. The Romans normally built their cities at the place where there had previously been a native settlement, Mainz/Mogontiacum is derived from a celtic expression.

His surname (Hoffmann) indicates a German descent

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Nope. You should read about the origin of Jewish surnames. Before the Partitions of Poland, Jews had no surnames, but only patronyms (for example "Jacob, son of Levi", etc.). After the Partitions they were given surnames by mostly German-speaking clerks. Clerks in the Prussian and Austrian partitions - which encompassed entire territory of modern Poland (Russia acquired areas located to the west of the current eastern border of Poland only in 1815, after the Congress of Vienna) - gave them largely German-sounding surnames. Among those clerks were also some guys fixated on jewellery, gold, silver, etc.

but there is not information in the wikipedia whether German was among his native languages.

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There is information that he was born to a Magyarized family and also another information that he published in Hungarian.

For example in the 1780s certain privileged Jews (Schutzjuden) were allowed to immigrate to Elbing. Among the first immigrants in 1783-1787 were Moses Levin (Moses, son of Levi) and Moses Simon (Moses, son of Simon). Jewish families (in total 33) who had immigrated to Elbing were given new German surnames (to old patronyms) on 11 March 1812. Below is the list of family heads of those 33 families. New surnames since 11.03.1812 given in brackets:

http://historia-wyzynaelblaska.pl/elblag2.html

widow Beile (Albrecht)
Zacharias and Michel Daniel (Bendon)
Simon Samuel (Blum)
Josefine (Clausdorff)
Wolf Samuel (Frankenstein)
Moses Joachim Levi and Salomon Mendel (Goldschmidt)
Wolf Lewin (Goldstamm)
Samuel Isaak (Goldstein)
Hanna and Bune Abraham (Heidenreich)
David Hirsch (Hirsch)
More Jacoby (Jacoby)
Lewin Jacob (Jacobsohn)
Josef Lewin and Jacob Josef (Jost)
Israel Kaufmann (Kauffmann)
Barend Isaak (Kuhn)
Wolf Samuel Laaser, Wulff Saul Laserun (Laaseron)
Abraham Isaak (Lewinson)
Leib Jakob Lewin (Loewenthal)
Beile Mendel (Mindheim)
Moritz Daniel Mendel (Moritzsohn)
Moses Koel (Mosheim)
Meyer Israel (Ries)
Josef Schaul (Rosenberg)
widow Roese Markus (Rosenberg)
Isaak David (Saphir)
Moses Lewin (Lewinsohn)
Kaufmann Simon (Simson)
Lewin Liepmann (Spiro)
Salomon Isaak (Stoltzenberg)
Lewin Abraham (Weinberg)
Wolf Abraham and Wolff Itzig (Wollmann)
Leonora and Hanna Wulff (Wulff)
Bendix Oppenheim (Oppenheim)

Apparently some of them had their surnames already before 11.03.1812. Others adopted surnames on that day.

Data from Austrian censuses between 1880 and 1910 for languages in Eastern Galicia (%):



Between 1880 and 1910 Polish-speakers in Eastern Galicia increased from 27,93% to 39,75%.

Percent of Ruthenian-speakers in Eastern Galicia declined from 64,74% to 58,92% in that time.

Percent of German-speakers also declined from 7,21% to 1,21% during those thirty years.

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If we look at religions then % of Roman Catholics was also increasing between 1880 - 1910, though not as fast as that of Polish-speakers.

One of several reasons for that growing percentage share of Roman Catholics, were numerous conversions to Roman Catholicism.

In 1910 Western Galicia, contrary to eastern part, had an absolute Polish-speaking majority of 96% (ca. 2,56 million).

Entire Galicia (West + East) had 58,6% Polish-speaking majority (ca. 4,7 million out of a population of ca. 8,0 million).

Below is the data for Eastern Galicia by county (red squares = counties with Polish-speaking majority in 1910):



Primary source for this data is:

Oesterreichische Statistik, N.F., Bd.1, H.1: 1910

Are we talking about a "New World Order"? Wait! NWO comes from tinfoil hats. I must mean something ecumenical and internationalistic. Such a thing really is not new. Macedonian leader Phillip, and his son Alexander, after seeing the Greek city-states stick their noses up to Macedonia, probably wondered, "Why can't we all just get along?" They longed for one world empire where ideas and business would be exchanged freely, where Hellenic Greek city-states, Persians, Macedonians, Egyptians, would not hate on each other, but communicate openly, a world without borders.

The Romans would later attempt the same thing, but ultimately fail.

Mongol leader Temujin, given the title Ghenghis Khan, also achieved such a thing, but fragmented after he died. Temujin was infamous for scorched earth, but brought us such things as religious debate and freedom, plus a communication system that resembled the Pony Express of the early United States.

superbeer said:

<< Macedon, Romans and Mongols weren't imperialistic, just wanted peaceful integration, and didn't slaughter all those millions of people >>

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Not sure if you are joking, or serious ???

superbeer said:

<< confusing "imperialistic" with "internationalistic" >>

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superbeer said:

Temujin was infamous for scorched earth, but brought us such things as religious debate and freedom

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Uhm... You must certainly be joking then.

Nope. The Mongol empire was very much religiously tolerant.

100% of people oppressed regardless of religion is still worse than some religious groups oppressed and others not oppressed.

We might say that the Russian partition of Poland has de facto not ended yet.

Modern Poland includes only a tiny piece of land from the original Russian partition - forests around Bia&#322;owie&#380;a:

Bia&#322;owie&#380;a Forest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Białowieża_Forest

The Partitions in 1772 - 1795: http://www.onionas.pl/sites/default/files/field/image/skanowanie0002.jpg
The Congress of Vienna (1815): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ngresspolen.png/702px-Karte_kongresspolen.png