Will Hitler be seen in a more positive way in the far future?

Plotinus said:

How is it consistent to ignore the question whether a historical figure's actions were "good" or "bad", and then talk about whether they had "good" or "bad" consequences? That's not an avoidance of moral judgements, it's just a decision to make consequentialist moral judgements. If you're going to allow the language of "good" and "bad" into the writing of history at all, I don't see why it should be limited to events and not actions.

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It's a very heavy-handed satire, not a statement of actual opinion.

I now know what Verhoeven felt like after people took Starship Troopers seriously.

On reflection the best part of this conversation was the sheer number of basic factual errors and non sequiturs that christos200 made defending Chinggis Khaan. Here's a short-list:

christos200 said:

His conquests allowed East-West trade to begin again.

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It had never stopped. In actual fact, the Song dynasty which the Chinggisid Yuan replaced was famous for its trade goods. Ibn Battuta for example wrote that: Among the inhabitants of China there are those who own numerous ships, on which they send their agents to foreign places. For nowhere in the world are there to be found people richer than the Chinese. Those ships are meant to have traded as far away as Egypt.

christos200 said:

A famous example of East-West communication in the time of the Khans was Marco Polo. Thanks to the peace brought by the Khans in Asia, trade flourished.

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Actually, scholarly opinion is that it either stagnated or went backwards. The sea-route under the Song and Southern Song was by its nature more efficient: ship cargoes are measured in tens of tonnes, wagons in hundreds of kilos. A hundred large ships - which wouldn't be an unreasonable estimate of out-going annual Chinese sea traffic under the Song - would require thousands upon thousands of wagons to match.

christos200 said:

Also, the Westerners started to want the Chinese and Indian products, which after the Mongol Empire collapsed led to the discovery of America.

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Westerners had wanted those for a long time before. Like a really long time before. Pepper and silk are mentioned by Roman sources. I'm also not sure how the collapse of the Mongol Empire led to the discovery of America... umpteen centuries later.

christos200 said:

During his and his sons rule, several scholars from Persia, China and Europe worked together at the court of the Great Khan, which allowed scientific progress.

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What ground-breaking scientific discoveries arose from these ground-breaking discussions?

christos200 said:

Because it indirectly helped in starting the era or Colonization, because unifying China did in the end more good to the Chinese people than bad

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The Chinggisids saved China because... colonization!

christos200 said:

If you want to believe anti-Mongolian propaganda and ignore historical facts, it does not matters to me. Why should someone bother with one random guy in the internet when people from universities and scholars say the truth.

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Apparently there's a cabal of people peddling anti-Mongolian propaganda. WHEN ONE OF YOU GUYS SEE THEM, MAKE SURE TO TELL ME OKAY? Because I have really strong opinions about Mongolians and think they should all do something. Also, there is one universal truth about this issue!

christos200 said:

I never said that there was never West-East trade before Genghis. Chinese goods were found in the former Roman Empire. I said that Genghis Khan managed to increase East-West trade, which had suffered since the Barbarian invasions. First read, then comment.

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Please prove this claim.

caketastydelish said:

I don't think viewing Ghengis Khan as a hero is 'socially acceptable', especially within people educated (if they're educated in humanities, history in particular, I can't imagine a single person that would view Khan that way).

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Although, in all fairness, it is a very good vodka.

Imagine if someone made Hitler Schnapps

I bet it'd sell in Asia

Whatever, i don't think germans are dumb enough to elect an adolf again.

Was that a real question on WWTBAM?

Did he also really answer heil? Or just a random Gif?

^Not sure, but if you know german you can easily research it.

Well that isn't German, but heck I'll give it a whirl anyways

Yeekim said:

This, probably. In few centuries, he'll still be a villain, just not THE villain.

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Agreed. He'll just become another bad guy. We just haven't had a really good recent villain who wasn't compared excessively to Hitler. The moment we get a guy who can stand on his own murderous feet, he'll be the Big Bad Guy.

christos200 said:

Something you do not seem to understand is that in the 20th century, genocide was something that was considered cruel and inhuman. In the 13th century, the massacre of civilians by conquering armies was something that was accepted by the society of that time.

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Masada got serious and objected to the stuff I was going to write, but I figured I'd leave a note on this one: I'm pretty sure the people getting butchered thought it was cruel and inhumane. Just like people now don't like getting butchered.

It's still a germanic language (is it dutch btw?)

Kyriakos said:

It's still a germanic language (is it dutch btw?)

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> mocks Americans because he thinks they don't know who John Major was
> can't tell the difference between German and Dutch

Dachs said:

> can't tell the difference between German and Dachs

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FIXED (you lose )

Kyriakos said:

It's still a germanic language (is it dutch btw?)

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Yes it's Dutch.

Kyriakos said:

It's still a germanic language (is it dutch btw?)

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I find it awesome that despite centuries of independent linguistic development (with, to be fair, plenty of interaction), English and Dutch are still close enough that most English speakers could probably read that Dutch sentence just fine.

I would bet on Flemish actually

Traitorfish said:

Spoiler :

Although, in all fairness, it is a very good vodka.

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Under the premise that the purpose of alcohol (vodka in particular) is to get you drunk (thus making terrible decisions), maybe they aren't necessarily giving Mr. Khan a good image.

Wait, isn't that guy who's being quizzed Yves Leterme?

Kaiserguard said:

Wait, isn't that guy who's being quizzed Yves Leterme?

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I looked it up and apparently its a joke making fun of him after he sang the wrong national anthem or something like that. Not sure why the Belgian is answering in Dutch, but meh ok

Dachs said:

> mocks Americans because he thinks they don't know who John Major was

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Anybody that stands on an actual soapbox to yell at his opponents about not voting is pretty cool .

Gucumatz said:

Not sure why the Belgian is answering in Dutch, but meh ok

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Belgium happens to be bilingual, and Dutch is... well... like French.