AW's New Civilizations | The Sixteen Nation Project [G&K/BNW]

How should the Berbers be updated?


  • Total voters
    35
Well first, I'm going to see if I can't get my seeeecret current project done and release it soon. Whether that happens or not though, you should see some rapid-fire updates to most of my civs (mostly replacing the artwork, so that it makes me want to throw up less, but also adding music, changing some text, enhanced BNW compatibility, Sukritact's decisions compatibility (maybe), maybe something special for the Minoans ;)).

The Berbers will be completely reworked (into a :c5gold: $$$ civ), since they right now kinda suck, with a ridiculously OP UU and a dysfunctional UA. (Should've known not to be getting into Lua with my second civ :rolleyes:) The Aghrem's okay, but like most stuff it could use a graphical overhaul.

And then...
Spoiler :
Bias Civilization Leader Estimated % Done
:c5culture: Anuradhapura Dutugamunu? 0%
:c5production: Belg ium Albert I? 0%
:c5strength: Bohemia Wenceslaus II 50%
:c5war: Gran Colombia Simon Bolivar 0%
:c5faith: Livonia Albert of Riga? 0%
:c5war: Magyars Arpad 5%
:c5science: Samanids Ismail I 60%

Just so my plans for these civs don't end up like my old plans for Oman, which kinda got ceded to CL which then got ceded to More Civs.


Mandatory guess secret project time:
Spoiler :

If you think you know what civ it is PM me - blurting it out with a post on this thread does not count - to ask and if you're right you earn a spot on the "Wall of People Who Guessed the Mystery Civ Correctly". Think of it like the world's worst carnival game. :p

CURRENT RAPID-FIRE-UPDATE-IN-PROGRESS-CIV: Switzerland v 5.0

Beyond that I can say no more.
 
I like the civs but please don't put them all in sets, I want to pick and choose which ones I have in my games.
 
I like the civs but please don't put them all in sets, I want to pick and choose which ones I have in my games.
"Sets" for me are just really a convenient way for me to catalog my planned civs in groups of 8. So don't worry, they'll remain having separate download links, although I might compile them all into additional 8-packs so that they can either be downloaded separately or in groups of 8.
 
"Sets" for me are just really a convenient way for me to catalog my planned civs in groups of 8. So don't worry, they'll remain having separate download links, although I might compile them all into additional 8-packs so that they can either be downloaded separately or in groups of 8.

That sound pretty good!
 
Fantastic update to the OP!
:hatsoff: Why thank you. I'm not sure what exactly made it so fantastic though; mostly I was trying to take all the civ icons and compress them into 1 image, cuz 30 image maximum per post. I do like the map though. (Still not as good as yours/jan's) It'll be updated each time I release a new civ.

...If, at this rate, I do release a new civ... :cringe:
But seriously, the one I'm working on right now is super freakin' awesome and I haven't seen anyone do a civ remotely like it, except for right now I get strange graphical glitches or, more often, crashes, from playtesting it.
 
"SPECIAL INFORMATION:
Horribly broken; will undergo major update."

Are you still planning on updating the Berber? I downloaded them because they seemed like a fun steamrolling civ, but I was dismayed to learn that the Takoba don't upgrade.
 
"SPECIAL INFORMATION:
Horribly broken; will undergo major update."

Are you still planning on updating the Berber? I downloaded them because they seemed like a fun steamrolling civ, but I was dismayed to learn that the Takoba don't upgrade.
I am; however, as I am also away from my home computer, and will be for a few more days, that's a tad hard for me to do. The new Berbers will include an expanded city list, maybe a new leader, hopefully music and definitely better artwork.

They'll also be repurposed into a :c5gold: civ - this is what I had in mind:

BERBERS
Leader: Kahina*
:c5capital:: Aghat
UA: The Alazay - Land units gain +1 visibility range in desert. :c5trade: City connections generate +10% :c5gold: and all desert resources produce +1 :c5gold:. Salt yields an extra +1 :c5gold: and double quantity.
UU: Takoba - Replaces longswordsman. Receives double movement in desert tiles and may move after attacking.
UB: Aghrem - Replaces castle. Pastures and oases yield an extra +1 :c5food: and :c5gold: to the city it is built in.
Start bias: Desert
Primary bias: Gold
Secondary Bias: Offense

* As long as I can find some art to work off of here, Kahina is probably a better choice for leader than Tin Hinan, as we're fairly certain that she actually exists.

This was the best I could think of, but it still doesn't seem creative enough. Suggestions?

EDIT: And by the way, don't expect this gratuitous revealing of plans to become a habit...

EDIT2: Nope, I can't find much good artwork so Tin Hinan will probably stay. I do, however, have a good idea for music... :mischief:
 
My takes on your civs:

Switzerland-too powerful, too passive. they just make passive play an "easy mode", its virtually impossible to beat your defenses if played semi-competent, on top of anti-spy built in and even agressive play discoraged. I get the "stay out of it" mentality, but this civ seriously just play solo as if others do not even exist. some interactivity should be added.

Berber-I like the power level. not quite the nation, but the power level.

Harappa-hard to tell, maybe the UA bonus is a bit high.

Taiwan -too much of a lategame nation. as in, everything about it comes into play extremely late, with the UA and UU entering game at the very end of your average game, and the UB so late it won't even be unlocked by the time someone wins in most games (space race is a hard win to pull off, others happen much sooner, or as military goes just make chasing space suicidal)

Minoan-absurdly powerful early game, yet completely irrelevant once even Renaissance tech comes into play. you might want to consider changing the UA to something a bit more fluid across the game (10% bonus does less early, more late for example) given how both UU (never liked double UU nations too) just go off the tech level so early.

Inuit-played with them, and I must say that the 15% bonus to culture for basically free (its such a low tech quick built building after all) is a bit too good. especially when the UA makes you have insane culture anyway. you need to scale down just how much free culture they produce.

Zapotec-chances are bad. make it a static +1 or replace it at all. otherwise seems powerful yet not overboard.
 
My takes on your civs:

Switzerland-too powerful, too passive. they just make passive play an "easy mode", its virtually impossible to beat your defenses if played semi-competent, on top of anti-spy built in and even agressive play discoraged. I get the "stay out of it" mentality, but this civ seriously just play solo as if others do not even exist. some interactivity should be added.

Berber-I like the power level. not quite the nation, but the power level.

Harappa-hard to tell, maybe the UA bonus is a bit high.

Taiwan -too much of a lategame nation. as in, everything about it comes into play extremely late, with the UA and UU entering game at the very end of your average game, and the UB so late it won't even be unlocked by the time someone wins in most games (space race is a hard win to pull off, others happen much sooner, or as military goes just make chasing space suicidal)

Minoan-absurdly powerful early game, yet completely irrelevant once even Renaissance tech comes into play. you might want to consider changing the UA to something a bit more fluid across the game (10% bonus does less early, more late for example) given how both UU (never liked double UU nations too) just go off the tech level so early.

Inuit-played with them, and I must say that the 15% bonus to culture for basically free (its such a low tech quick built building after all) is a bit too good. especially when the UA makes you have insane culture anyway. you need to scale down just how much free culture they produce.

Zapotec-chances are bad. make it a static +1 or replace it at all. otherwise seems powerful yet not overboard.
Switzerland's UA will be overhauled in hopefully the next update... no word on when that will be... but it will replace the incentive to fight only within your territory with a sudden, free influx of military upon being declared war on.

Berbers, as I've said before, are going to be overhauled. I'm not sure whether you're referring to the current version or the idea I came up with above.

Harappans, I actually thought were a little UP. Oh well. I don't intend to change anything soon except the artwork.

Taiwan, this is all intentional. It's supposed to be a late-game industrial superpower. It wouldn't make sense to make a country that is peaking in the modern age to be so powerful in the Renaissance, right? Admittedly, no, having a Space Factory UB isn't helpful, but on the other hand, it does add to the flavor, and I couldn't find any other building that would make the most sense to replace with an electronic development complex.

Minoans... also intentional, RL Minoan civ didn't survive past 1400 BC. Next update should add 2 alternate uniques and rebalance the current 2, perhaps you'll find them more favorable. I would, however, encourage you to consider historical accuracy and not just gameplay - same with Taiwan.*

Inuit - You should only have "insane culture" by settling on desert and arctic coasts. And that's also intentional, because it's supposed to make up for the otherwise horrible yields from desert and snow - i.e. none at all. It's also supposed to encourage the player to settle near coastal resources since it's their only chance of survival. Yes, they produce lots of culture, but it's to make up for their spawning in the god-forsaken wasteland that is the tundra.
(At least when the start bias does it's job... :p)

Zapotecs... "make it a static +1"...? :confused: Are you talking about the 20% boost of science?

Spoiler :
FTR these are the requirements for the uniques are these:
1) Every civilization must have a primary bias and a secondary bias (e.g. for next Berber update, :c5gold: and :c5war:, respectively)
2) The UA must reflect the primary bias.
3) At least one of the other unique components must also reflect the primary bias.
4) One of the unique components (but not both) and/or the UA must reflect the secondary bias.


* To that point, I'm aware that the Minoans did not use either Xiphos or Penetconters, but we have little to no records of their army. Some liberty may be taken where there is not enough information available. Xiphos and penteconters were both used in early Greek warfare, albeit not Minoan. Close enough.
 
Re: the Science Park as Spaceship Factory conundrum...

Research Lab? Medical Lab? Recycling Center (thus giving you an incentive to build the things if you have semi-decent luck with Strategic Resources)? Hell, even a Nuclear Plant might work, if you whack in a Science bonus (say 33%) to accompany the Production stuff. Meh, Iunno, I'm just theorizing. =]
 
Taiwan and Harappa updated!
Harappan Version History said:
v2 - Graphical overhaul (most of the art updated). City list extended. Music added.
Taiwan Version History said:
v2 - Science park changed to replace Research Lab. DOM, Map image and civ icons updated.
Per Scapegrace's suggestion.

I haven't actually playtested the changes, so tell me if you encounter any bugs.

And on another topic, per the note I made in my sig, the modding process would go approximately seven hundred trillion and three times faster with the help of a Lua expert (or a few). I have a very long list of scripts that I tried and failed to code; if anyone wants to try their hand at making them functional drop me a line, and get yourself initiated into my "Meet the team" section and a VIP for every mod you help out with! :)
 
I've been thinking about The Berbers for a while now. Sorry to necro, but I know you were interested in revamping them, and therefore these are my ideas.

The Berbers (Kahina)
Start Bias: Desert
UA: Tinariwen
:c5trade: Roads on Desert Tiles cost no :c5gold: Maintenance. Oasis Tiles with a :c5trade: Road or Railroad generate +2 additional :c5gold: Gold and can be improved with a Landmark by an Archaeologist.
UU: Imjaghan (replaces Knight)
Start with Charge and a unique Promotion, "The Proud and Free", that grants a +1% :c5strength: Combat Bonus for every 2 :c5citizen: Citizens in the :c5capital: Capital. Requires more :c5production: Production to train and costs more to buy with :c5faith: Faith, but costs less to buy with :c5gold: Gold. Upgrades to Musketman, but becomes obsolete at Military Science.
UB: Inadan (replaces Forge)
+1 :c5production: Production and +1 :c5gold: Gold from Iron, Copper, Silver, Gold, Aluminium, and Uranium. +15% :c5production: Land Unit Production bonus. Costs no :c5gold: Maintenance and has no Resource requirements, but requires more :c5production: Production to construct.

I hope that's of use to you. It's an interesting Civ idea with a fascinating history, and I tried to reflect the idea of rich warrior-princes riding into battle with the finest weapons their client-caste can forge from the metal they fear. It also avoids the common trap of using a weapon name for a unique unit - rather, the Imjaghan were the noble rulers of a Tuareg kel, protecting the trade routes and running the place. It just sounds right for a Knight replacement. The Imadan, on the other hand, are a client-caste of a different ethnicity to the rest of the Tuaregs, and who don't have the same fear of touching iron that they do. They even speak a different, entirely secret language, causing some Tuareg to believe that they had magic powers back in the day (animist religions are often like that; the mystics aren't the people with the right words, but the people who make things). I suppose, given that they make the famed takoba swords, that after a fashion they do have a magical power over metal, but nevertheless, a Forge replacement has been coming for a long time.

Again, I hope these spark off some ideas, and again, I'm sorry to the mods for necroing. It was just a flash of inspiration after watching an EU IV LP of Air.

I must now apologise for invoking the Great Satan that is Europa Universalis. =]
 
Imagine my surprise to see that this thread was active again. :lol:
I apologize for the slowness of my modding, about the speed of a coconut-laden snail. Going uphill. On a 90 degree slope. And also dead.

So a couple notes:
The Berbers (Kahina)
I had considered Kahina as a leader, but frankly, my artwork depends on what good sources I can find on google images. Which is next to zilch for Kahina.
UA: Tinariwen
:confused:
Spoiler :

:c5trade: Roads on Desert Tiles cost no :c5gold: Maintenance. Oasis Tiles with a :c5trade: Road or Railroad generate +2 additional :c5gold: Gold and can be improved with a Landmark by an Archaeologist.
Depends quite a bit on a gamble known as the start bias, but I guess I did the same with the Inuit. I'm not sure it's possible to make roads cost half maintenance only on a specific plot type, but I appreciate trying to stay within the gold bias.
UU: Imjaghan (replaces Knight)
Start with Charge and a unique Promotion, "The Proud and Free", that grants a +1% :c5strength: Combat Bonus for every 2 :c5citizen: Citizens in the :c5capital: Capital. Requires more :c5production: Production to train and costs more to buy with :c5faith: Faith, but costs less to buy with :c5gold: Gold. Upgrades to Musketman, but becomes obsolete at Military Science.
This is an interesting proposition, actually. I don't know how to do The Proud and Free but I'm assuming it must be fairly similar to More Civs' Oman's naval unit bonus. Unfortunately most pretty much all of my research for my civs involves what I can find on Wikipedia, and "Imjaghan" returns no results. I'll certainly look into making this an alternate UU if you can find some source that I can base the historical info off.
UB: Inadan (replaces Forge)
+1 :c5production: Production and +1 :c5gold: Gold from Iron, Copper, Silver, Gold, Aluminium, and Uranium. +15% :c5production: Land Unit Production bonus. Costs no :c5gold: Maintenance and has no Resource requirements, but requires more :c5production: Production to construct.
Eh. I can't exactly pinpoint how but it seems a little bland. I do prefer the Aghrem/Ksar/Qasr/whatever you want to call it which I might change to put more emphasis on trade routes. The current change lined up is supposed to reflect the Berber's nomadic herding aspect, with the bonus to pastures. And making a building that's really a tribe strikes me as a tad odd.
a Forge replacement has been coming for a long time.
Might have a place to fit one in...

Anyway, several interesting suggestions. But overall I'd like to make the reworked Berbers represent a trading, gold accumulating conglomerate rather than vicious bloodthirsty barbarians. (Fun fact: "barbarian" is derived from "Berber")

And I'm fairly sure it's not necroing since that's a form of spam and we can consider this a contribution to a conversation.
 
In order:

Tinariwen is the Tuareg word for true desert, and the endlessness desert holds a particular place in the pre-Islamic animist traditions of the Tuareg. If you want, Cross of Agadez probably fits as well; it's a type of cross that features the four cardinal directions and they're sacred items to the Tuareg. It might work, idk. Imouhar is also an option, which is how the Tuareg refer to themselves: "the free people".

That'd be... because I spelled it wrong. Whoops. The IMAJAGHAN (note the additional A, which somehow escaped) are the ruling caste of a Tuareg tel, and they're the ones who organize local defences and protect the caravans. This is the article I used. I remain an idiot. =]

The reason I did it as the inadan rather than a specific building was that the Tuareg have this really weird cultural hangup regarding iron. They don't touch it. Ever. The inadan caste, however, is entirely made up of non-Tuaregs, and therefore doesn't have that particular bit of cultural weirdness. It fits, and I thought it'd be interesting. I said in the post that my thoughts for this Civ was the noblemen of the deserts surging forward with the strength and will of their people behind them, made with the weapons of a caste that they thought were literally wizards.

However, I get that it could be a little bland as a UB. I personally think it's quite interesting, but then I like things that emphasize buildings that you generally don't build (of which Forges and Mints are king) without a damn good reason. How about this:

UB: Aghrem (replaces Caravansary)
+50% Land Trade Route range. +2 :c5gold: Gold per Land Trade Route to another Major Civilization. Units trained in a City with a Taghlamt gain a unique Promotion based on the predominant Luxury Resource in range of the City (e.g. which Luxury you have the most of in range of that City). If the City has the same amount of two or more Luxuries in its range, then the promotion is selected at random.

List of Promotions:-
Cotton: Heals +1 additional HP for each enemy unit it has killed.
Spices: Generates +2 :c5culture: Culture per turn when Garrisoned in a City with an International Trade Route.
Sugar: Heals +5 HP per turn in your territory, and +10 HP per turn when Garrisoned in a City.
Furs: Double :c5moves: Movement and +10% :c5strength: Combat Bonus on Tundra and Snow Tiles.
Ivory: Gains +25% :c5strength: Combat Bonus against Mounted Units.
Silk: Generates :c5gold: Gold per kill.
Dyes: Generates a flat boost of :c5culture: Culture when pillaging enemy Tiles.
Incense: Generates +1 :c5faith: Faith per turn when Fortified.
Wine: +25% :c5strength: Combat Bonus when attacking, -15% :c5strength: Combat Penalty when defending.
Copper: When Garrisoned in a City, Mines on Luxury Resources generate +1 :c5production: Production.
Gold: Generates :c5goldenage: Golden Age points equal to the unit's :c5strength: Combat Strength or :c5rangedstrength: Ranged Combat Strength every time it levels up.
Silver: Generates :c5faith: Faith per kill.
Marble: When the unit is Garrisoned in a City, Specialists in that City generate -25% :c5angry: Unhappiness.
Pearls: +25% :c5greatperson: Great Person generation rate when Garrisoned in a City on a River.
Crab: Generates +2 :c5food: Food when Garrisoned in a Coastal City.
Salt: Costs no :c5gold: Maintenance.
Whales: Receives no Combat Penalties while Embarked.
Citrus: Generates +1 :c5culture: Culture from Plantations when Garrisoned in a City.
Cocoa: When Garrisoned in a City, Luxuries generate +1 :c5faith: Faith
Truffles: Double movement and +10% :c5strength: Combat Bonus in Forest and Jungle Tiles.
Gems: +5% :c5strength: Combat Bonus per copy of Gems exported.

---

How's that? I know it's a bit similar to the Kris, but it's still interesting. I think. =]
 
Problem: The caravansary is a BNW-exclusive building. So I think It could be kept as a castle replacement.

Other than that it's a neat idea, except for I'm not sure how many of those promotions are even possible to code. I think most of them aren't, actually - in particular...
  • Marble (modding with unhappiness is really screwy, as is modding with specialists)
  • Salt (only unit maintenance modifiers I'm aware of is a permanent integer boost tied to the unit and an empire-wide modifier)
  • Gems (this one is actually theoretically possible as long as you don't mind as many promotions being added to the unit as copies of dye exported. A max might fix the problem.)
  • Cotton (no way I'm aware of the see how many enemies a unit has killed, especially without DLL modding, but otherwise we find ourselves in a similar situation to that of gems)
  • Probably gold and silver (Gold would require a lua event hook that fires when a unit goes up a level, which I'm pretty sure there is none, and so would require a messy workaround. Silver's effect, AFAIK, is strictly tied to units.)
  • Copper and citrus are at least very problematic (Like many of these, would require a dummy building, but specifically a dummy building that would a require a table such as <Building_ImprovementYieldChanges>, which doesn't exist)
  • Dyes would also cause some trouble (Probably; it just sounds problematic)
  • ...And probably also whales. (I don't think those penalties are removable...)

But it's an interesting idea though.

Also, what the heck is this "Taghlamt" you're talking about? I feel like that's something you were going to specify but forgot to...
 
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