Ideology, Individuality and Groupthink

I think you exaggerate (American bullion mostly just contributed to inflation, in both China and Europe), but none the less: that's a long-term development involving millions of people, not a single earth-shattering moment, attributable to a single heroic individual.
 
Paradigm-breaking for Europeans, though - if we count Columbus as 'the Spanish'. Incidentally, does anyone know how long it took for knowledge of America to disseminate beyond Christian Europe? What's the timeline of (say) the Chinese presence in North America?


By some point in the 16th century Spanish were trading with Chinese in the Philippians. So China, some portion of it anyways, was aware of the New World before the 17th century. And some Chinese and Filipinos had moved to what would become Mexico and other parts of the Central and South America by that time. The Pacific coast of North America, the region that would later become the US, there was hardly any 'foreign' presence in the 17th, or even the 18th centuries. Handfuls of Spanish. Extremely few others.

Between the time of Columbus, and the Mexican-American War, Mexico City was the premier city in the Americas. It had the most immigrants from everywhere.

So far as I know, Chinese shipbuilding of the 16th through 19th centuries was not up to crossing the Pacific. Chinese shipbuilding of the 14th and 15th centuries was, but knowledge was lost when emperors forbid the practice.
 
I know, I was just pointing out that the discovery of the New World had a more immediate effect than you claim. It can't be attributed to one individual but it happened fairly quickly. Drake was making a killing plundering Spanish treasure ships before the turn of the 16th century, showing that significant amounts of gold and silver had been extracted from the New World.
 
I know, I was just pointing out that the discovery of the New World had a more immediate effect than you claim. It can't be attributed to one individual but it happened fairly quickly. Drake was making a killing plundering Spanish treasure ships before the turn of the 16th century, showing that significant amounts of gold and silver had been extracted from the New World.
None of that should be considered "paradigm-breaking", though, and none of it makes an argument for heroic individuals as the motors of history, which was the context in which the Columbian exchange was first raised.
 
Columbus is an interesting case in the 'great man' debate. Had he not talked people into backing his voyage, would someone else have done so? Mark Kurlansky makes the argument that when British and French explorers were beginning to explore North America, the islands of the northeast of what is now Canada, they found Basque fishermen. But was that before or after Columbus that the Basque began fishing the region? And would word have gotten out? The Basque, apparently, weren't talking.

Of course, we know today that the Vikings discovered America some 500 years before Columbus. But the big difference between what the Vikings did, and what the Basque may have done, and what Columbus did, was that Columbus told everyone about it. So it became common knowledge because of Columbus, where it had not based on all of the other people who knew that the continents of the Americas existed.

So Columbus, even though he was personally a monster, and his efforts triggered one of the greatest tragedies of human history, can be argued as a person who's individual efforts and leadership made a major change on the history of the world.
 
I tend to think that somebody would have blundered into the Americas before too long. Europeans were already tentatively probing the Atlantic before Columbus, trying to get a handle on the trade-winds. It could have been years and perhaps decades later. John Cabot discovered Canada pretty much independently of Columbus, because Bristol merchants had been funding expeditions into the Northern Atlantic for a decade or so hoping to find Hy-Brasil; Columbus' contribution was only encouraging them to push a little further out.

Even accepting that Columbus made a difference of more than a few decades, all we can really say is that he was the right man with the right idea at the right place at the right time: a capable salesman with a compelling scheme in a Spanish court with the capacity and inclination to support his voyage. Change any one of those variables, and the great world-historical personality of Columbus fails to manifest.
 
That can be attributed to any individual at all with any success- right down to modern times. For example- would Obama have won if the Republicans fielded a less incompetent candidate than Romney? Would Martin Luther King have been so successful if the NAACP hadn't established a legal precedent of peacefully aiming for civil rights, or if slavery still existed as an institution? The most influential individuals of history can't solely claim responsibility for the course that history took, but they brought something to the violatile mixture of society, technology etc. that changed the world. It is like a chemical compound. If one element is missing the mixture won't happen. However if the element is there without the rest than the compound isn't created either.

A good example of this I think is Muhammad. No matter what you think of the man or the religion he inspired, he was born in the right time under the right circumstances- Islam might have not taken hold had the Arabs faced the Byzantines and Persians at their mightiest or at least it wouldn't have spread so far, but it is also doubtful anyone besides Muhammad could have united the Arab tribes into one force.
 
Well, yeah, but I don't accept that Obama, MLK or Muhammad are "Great Men", either. So it only stresses the point: that great personalities are not the motors of history.
 
Since we're moving the topic eastwards, what if Mozism had prevailed over Confucianism?

Because it was Legalism, not Confucianism, what killed Mozism, that would required formation of Chinese Empire totaly different from the one which we know - and I'm not sure how this connects to Great Man theory of history.
 
It doesn't, but it does connect to ideology, individuality and groupthink, doesn't it?
 
Well, yeah, but I don't accept that Obama, MLK or Muhammad are "Great Men", either. So it only stresses the point: that great personalities are not the motors of history.

The lowest commoner may forever impact the course of history by committing regicide. No great men or systematised historical theories involved.
 
The lowest commoner may forever impact the course of history by committing regicide. No great men or systematised historical theories involved.
To identify an act as "regicide" presumes a system which identifies the victim as a "king", and attributes some significance to that. Kings are not, independent of the attitude and behaviour of others, anything more than a man in a silly hat, as the great republican satirist Joshua Norton demonstrated through his extended experimental street theatre, "Joshua I, Emperor of These United States". It's the social, culture and political structures they inhabit which make kingship an historical reality.
 
Well, let's posit a scenario: what if, by some freak accident (say, an earthquake or a meteorite strike) Kin Jong-un and his top hundred aides or so were wiped off the face of the earth?
 
Easy, there would be a free for all between his relatives for political control. Whoever could garner enough support fro the party would depose all the other successors in a coup de'tat and win the privilege of continuing on what Kim Jong-Un was doing before.
 
Let's make it better then: All are gethered at a big party and the top few thousand Party members and Army officials are somehow killed.
 
Well, let's posit a scenario: what if, by some freak accident (say, an earthquake or a meteorite strike) Kin Jong-un and his top hundred aides or so were wiped off the face of the earth?
Let's make it better then: All are gethered at a big party and the top few thousand Party members and Army officials are somehow killed.
A serious political crisis, because neither the internal political structures of North Korea nor the diplomatic structures surrounding it internationally are built to withstand the sudden disappearance of the top leadership. There's a lack of redundancy in the system.
 
More likely than not you'd have South Korea take advantage of the chaos to reunite Korea into one nation state. If China decides to prevent this, then it will prop up a reliable puppet, a peon from the lower echelons of the organization who would open up the North Korean market to exploitation by Chinese capital.
 
The point is, the example doesn't illustrate any system-independent significance of the part of political leadership.
 
The lowest commoner may forever impact the course of history by committing regicide. No great men or systematised historical theories involved.

That's actually a circular argument, if you think about it. I think TF's point that being 'the right person at the right time' does not a great man make deserves to be reiterated: the whole point of the 'Great Man' idea is that he is independent of his time.
 
Yeah, the "Great Man" is somebody who forces their way into history through sheer force of personality, and for all Kaiserguard's denial, he's essentially advancing a more conservative version of the same idea, with extraordinary acts in the place of extraordinary personalities: Great Deeds rather than Great Men.
 
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