Aren't the Shoshone inherently superior to Ethiopia?

People frequently cite the use of artillery without spotters when defending America's UA. This makes some sense, as it is one of the only concrete examples of something you can do with the UA that you can't do without it, but I think this really misses the point of the ability. Every other civ in the game functions by providing concrete material advantages. America functions by providing you with information. As you scout the map at the beginning of the game, you can get a sense of the land around you, faster than anyone else, and you can use that knowledge to inform your choice of social policies, whether to pursue a religion and how much and how soon to build up your military. As you fight wars, you can see more easily than anyone else, the size, composition and organization of your opponent's army, and you can use that knowledge to make smarter tactical decisions. I don't mean to imply that America is an amazing civilization in this game (if I had to rank the civs it would be well below the median) but it does have a distinctive UA with the potential to be quite effective.

As for the B17, the main value of the city attack bonus it that it lets you get to the promotions you really want faster- a B17 built in a city with an armory can start with air repair. This is a powerful bonus, if not necessarily one worth waiting until the atomic era to get your second UU for.

Well, I don't usually go for a DV. However, when I am in that kind of mood, I'd absolutely pick the Zulu. While they focus a lot on one unit, their other uniques synergize so well with Impi that you can obliterate a lot of civs on Deity. For an added bonus, Impi follow the ideal track to Education, so your tech rate is still high. Impi also get a 25% bonus against gunpowder units, so their only true counter is a Lownswordsman UU. And, since you can't finish off 7 other AIs in that short a time, they upgrade to Riflemen.
Well, that's my rave about Shaka. Perhaps the best bonus of all is that if you play as him, there's no chance that you'll have to deal with his prickly AI.

ShakaKhan said:

Agreed. I can see making this argument for Shoshone>America, but Shoshone/Ethiopia is like asking which is better, apple pie or stock dividends?

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This sentiment is totally incorrect in my opinion. While one of them might not positively be superior to the other, I think it's still hard to say that Ethiopia are better than the Shoshone. Both have SIMILAR abilities at the very least, except the Shoshone also have larger borders and ruin picking. And their defensive bonus applies no matter how many cities they have, unlike Ethiopia.

As I said before, you might argue that Ethiopia's combat bonus can apply outside their own territory unlike the Shoshone. But why would you fight outside your own territory unless you're going conquest? And why would you go conquest with Ethiopia, when that would probably entail capturing many cities, which would negate your combat bonus against other civs?

The one area where I might see Ethiopia fighting wars outside their borders in a non-conquest manner is if they were defending a City State ally. And maybe some expert players play differently than me, but I hardly ever send troops far away to defend a City State ally that's being attacked.

The most compelling argument for Ethiopia I have involves the Faith boost from their Stele, which is definitely an awesome building. But acquiring the first Pantheon does not necessarily guarantee a strong religion throughout the game. Calling Ethiopia a religious specialist just because of their Stele is a grotesque exaggeration from my point of view.

Hmm. I think your wording is quite strong for a discussion.

Why would you conquest as Ethiopia? Why can't we? Maybe because we are conquering city after city to the point that the lack of bonus won't matter when we have army of 20+ units. It's not like we got penalty from conquering people and we can conquer larger nation first until we are the largest and that went on to conquer anyone.

Stele, Having +2 Faith from what probably your first building of the game give you a huge edge over most civ and slight edge over Maya and (in some case, Celt). But saying that you might not have strong religion even a bonus would mostly mean that one doesn't really want to build a strong religion. It's like saying Egypt is weak when you never build a wonder, or Mongol is weak because you don't have horse, or Hun is weak because your ram always destroyed by barbarian etc.

The thing I'm saying with Ethiopia is that the +2 Faith is mostly relevant just for getting first dibs on a Pantheon. Which in some cases, you might spawn on terrain that makes a certain Pantheon very OP (desert folklore for desert, sacred path for jungle, etc.)

But this is pretty much up to chance, because sometimes your spawn terrain does not make for any OP pantheon.

Outside of getting first dibs on a Pantheon, I don't think the +2 Faith makes much of a difference later on in a game. Somebody who builds temples and explores Piety will still have a larger edge over Ethiopia in terms of religion, if Ethiopia has not adopted Piety.

Umm... IMO, unwillingness to play certain strategy doesn't equate that strategy is bad. If we don't take inherent advantage of this early. +2 Faith, i mean... +2 faiths per city when others barely make one is a good jump-start, and start in terrible land doesn't make Ethiopia in particular a bad civ.

Athenaeum said:

The thing I'm saying with Ethiopia is that the +2 Faith is mostly relevant just for getting first dibs on a Pantheon. Which in some cases, you might spawn on terrain that makes a certain Pantheon very OP (desert folklore for desert, sacred path for jungle, etc.)

But this is pretty much up to chance, because sometimes your spawn terrain does not make for any OP pantheon.

Outside of getting first dibs on a Pantheon, I don't think the +2 Faith makes much of a difference later on in a game. Somebody who builds temples and explores Piety will still have a larger edge over Ethiopia in terms of religion, if Ethiopia has not adopted Piety.

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Consider this: The first Great Prophet on Standard Speed requires 200 . Early in the game, a regular civ can build a Shrine for +1 , while Ethiopia can build a Shrine and a Stele for a combined +3 . Thus, barring a Faith-based Pantheon or a Faith-rewarding ruin (because those are situational/luck related) a regular civ with just the capital, will generate that 1st GP in 200 turns while Ethiopia can do it in 67 turns. That's not even taking into account that it's a per city bonus, so each additional city will exacerbate the Ethiopian advantage.

That`s the thing. With Ethiopia just building shrines and temples + stelle is enough to match civs that went Piety without going into Piety. You`ll be also one of the first civs to found a religion which is always great thing, not to mention if you are on faith boosting terrain or resources. Add mosques to that and there is no civ with piety that can match you. Religious CS often give you a quest for faith accumulation so even more faith. I`d also imagine that you religion will be well spread and you won`t need missionaries or GP to spam other civs, instead you can use GP to generate even more faith. Then you can just buy religious buildings and great people with an abundance of faith.

Thing is, even if you don`t have any other bonuses via terrain or resources or piety, your faith is going to be competitve to others with Ethiopia, unlike Shoshone. Pathfinder helps you get a religion but then you are out of bonus. Also extra territory helps but not that much really. You can always buy the tiles you need. I noticed that because of extra territory from Shoshone, AI will often consider it land theft so it`s war sooner or later. As already said, Ethiopia is easier to play with on higher difficulties. UA, UB and UU are all in check.

Khagan Bek said:

Shoshone is better than Ethiopia. Yes, Ethiopia has early religion advantage but Shoshone has Pathfinder, which helps a lot to get religion.

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That is entirely not true.

1. You need to be on Turn 20 (on Quick) to be able to even pick a PANTHEON Faith Bonus, and even then you can only pick a Faith bonus every 3-4 RUINS, which will become very scarce by that time.

2. Ethiophia can built not only the Stele from Turn 0, but can also built a Shrine for a total of +3 faith without any other bonuses.

TheMarshmallowBear said:

That is entirely not true.

1. You need to be on Turn 20 (on Quick) to be able to even pick a PANTHEON Faith Bonus, and even then you can only pick a Faith bonus every 3-4 RUINS, which will become very scarce by that time.

2. Ethiophia can built not only the Stele from Turn 0, but can also built a Shrine for a total of +3 faith without any other bonuses.

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On Quick speed, certain civs have superior advantages, like Ethiopia, Siam etc. That's why I think Epic is most balanced speed.

For example, on Quick speed you need 15 culture to get your first Social Policy. So, if you ally a Cultural CS' as Siam, you're gonna get 9 culture instead 6 on early game -which means a lot- and 18 instead 12, after medieval and 39 instead 26, after Industrial era. And now, think that you have 3 or more ally cultural CS'.

Anyway, as Ethiopia you usually get religion -not sure on lvl 8- but Pathfinders, even if they don't find enough ruins to found a religion, they usually add more than half of the faith that I need to found a religion. It's like Ethiopia works hard since the beginning to get religion but Shoshone hit ruins and adds huge faith points to your empire and get religion at same time, maybe even earlier, if you are lucky. Once I hit over dozen ruins with 3 Pathfinders. Since you have larger borders, adding population to your cities is fantastic.

My final point; free tech, culture, faith, population choices and homeland defense makes them better than not just Ethiopia but many civs.

Solutionfinder said:

That`s the thing. With Ethiopia just building shrines and temples + stelle is enough to match civs that went Piety without going into Piety. You`ll be also one of the first civs to found a religion which is always great thing, not to mention if you are on faith boosting terrain or resources. Add mosques to that and there is no civ with piety that can match you. Religious CS often give you a quest for faith accumulation so even more faith. I`d also imagine that you religion will be well spread and you won`t need missionaries or GP to spam other civs, instead you can use GP to generate even more faith. Then you can just buy religious buildings and great people with an abundance of faith.

Thing is, even if you don`t have any other bonuses via terrain or resources or piety, your faith is going to be competitve to others with Ethiopia, unlike Shoshone. Pathfinder helps you get a religion but then you are out of bonus. Also extra territory helps but not that much really. You can always buy the tiles you need. I noticed that because of extra territory from Shoshone, AI will often consider it land theft so it`s war sooner or later. As already said, Ethiopia is easier to play with on higher difficulties. UA, UB and UU are all in check.

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Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge the advantage the Stele provides. I just wouldn't call Ethiopia a religious specialist for that reason. There are many things a regular civ can do to overcome Ethiopia's advantage.

A regular civ that builds shrines and temples and goes Piety will have more faith per turn than Ethiopia. The Grand Temple provides +8 faith and Stonehenge +5.

Like I said, a regular civ that goes Piety and builds shrines and temples is going to have more faith per turn than Ethiopia. Adopting Piety and actually focusing on religion is going to pay off more than simply getting +2 faith from steles.

Athenaeum said:

A regular civ that builds shrines and temples and goes Piety will have more faith per turn than Ethiopia. The Grand Temple provides +8 faith and Stonehenge +5.

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Ethiopia: 3 cities (example) going tradition with legalism, so stele is free
Stele x3 = 6 fpt
Shrine x3 = 3 fpt
Temple x3 = 6 fpt
Total (w/o faith based pantheon) = 15 fpt

Regular civ: 3 cities going piety with Organized Religion
Shrine x3 = 6 fpt
Temple x3 = 9 fpt
Total = 15 fpt

The values are the same.

Athenaeum said:

Like I said, a regular civ that goes Piety and builds shrines and temples is going to have more faith per turn than Ethiopia. Adopting Piety and actually focusing on religion is going to pay off more than simply getting +2 faith from steles.

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The thing with steles is it take MUCH less effort to get a religion. If you don't want to focus religion, fine, take Goddess of the Hunt or another pantheon really early for more growth, culture etc., all the while going down tradition for massive growth. If you decide to focus religion, you get shrines and temples up fast, get early religion, enhance, go into piety, get tithe, double religious buildings(because no one's picked them yet) and spread it across the world. The Stele makes it so much smoother because there are only 2 faith generating buildings outside of religious beliefs.

Athenaeum said:

Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge the advantage the Stele provides. I just wouldn't call Ethiopia a religious specialist for that reason. There are many things a regular civ can do to overcome Ethiopia's advantage.

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Replace Ethiopia, Stele and religious with a name of civ and it's corresponding advantage and you'll cover every civ that stronger than mid-tier

It is so because if Ethiopia have like +5 faith bonus from first turn, then it's more or less "click here to found overpowered religion" civ, or Greece would be "instant 300+ influence with every CS". Korea and Babylon would be "conquer medieval city with GDR" civ and so on.

Ethiopia, as some pointed out, have significant advantage that would mean extra effort for others and that's define the word X-specialist for them. If one need to rely on cheap tactics and luck just to overcome what another civ done effortlessly. Then there no point to play another civ. The game would become "Civ X's world conquest" awfully quick and I doubt that make a good game.

I just don't think that Ethiopia's Stele is a comparable bonus to what the Shoshone provide.

The Shoshone and Ethiopia both have defensive bonuses. The difference is that Shoshone have extra territory and ruin-picking, whereas Ethiopia has the Stele. The Stele is nice, but I don't feel that it compares to the extra territory and ruin-picking you get with Shoshone. Especially considering that Pantheons are random, and if your terrain does not make a certain Pantheon stand out, the Stele becomes less useful.

Athenaeum said:

Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge the advantage the Stele provides. I just wouldn't call Ethiopia a religious specialist for that reason.

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Is it not fair to characterize any civ with a significant faith bonus a “religious specialist”? Several civs have some kind of faith bonus or a religious UA, but they are still very much in the minority.

There are many things a regular civ can do to overcome Ethiopia's advantage.

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Yes, a neutral civ pursuing faith-oriented play can play keep pace with Ethiopia. That observation does not change the fact that Ethiopia gets a significant faith bonus and is fairly characterized as a “religious specialist”.

Athenaeum said:

I just don't think that Ethiopia's Stele is a comparable bonus to what the Shoshone provide.

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That is fair. In his analysis, consentient ranks Ethiopia as an 7 and Shoshone an 8. I think any methodical objective approach would result in the same relative ranking (that is, Shoshone > Ethiopia), so I agree with you here.

Especially considering that Pantheons are random, and if your terrain does not make a certain Pantheon stand out, the Stele becomes less useful.

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I am not sure what you mean by pantheons being random, since a player can almost always pick something that matches their dirt. Both Shoshone and Ethiopia are virtually assured a pantheon, and both can give you the flexibility to found without a faith-generating pantheon. I think I would argue that founding without a faith-generating pantheon is less of a gamble with Ethiopia than it is with Shoshone.

I am not sure what you mean by pantheons being random, since a player can almost always pick something that matches their dirt. Both Shoshone and Ethiopia are virtually assured a pantheon, and both can give you the flexibility to found without a faith-generating pantheon. I think I would argue that founding without a faith-generating pantheon is less of a gamble with Ethiopia than it is with Shoshone.

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What I'm saying is this - the main benefit you get from the Stele is first dibs on a pantheon. 2 Faith per turn is all right, but the reason it's so awesome is because it comes so early in the game, and allows you to pick your pantheon before other civs.

If Ethiopia spawns in terrain that does not make any pantheon stand out, then the value of their Stele is greatly decreased.

Having 2 faith per turn late game is not going to make much of a difference. The point is that you have that faith super early, which allows you to adopt an early pantheon. But if theres no pantheon bonus that stands out given your terrain, then it's not that great of a benefit.

Athenaeum said:

What I'm saying is this - the main benefit you get from the Stele is first dibs on a pantheon. 2 Faith per turn is all right, but the reason it's so awesome is because it comes so early in the game, and allows you to pick your pantheon before other civs.

If Ethiopia spawns in terrain that does not make any pantheon stand out, then the value of their Stele is greatly decreased.

Having 2 faith per turn late game is not going to make much of a difference. The point is that you have that faith super early, which allows you to adopt an early pantheon. But if theres no pantheon bonus that stands out given your terrain, then it's not that great of a benefit.

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WoW, but the start is the most important thing with faith. Getting to choose from religion perks can double or triple your faith output. Let`s say you pick Mosques and have 10 cities with Ethiopia. Thats 50 faith per turn output from Steles and Mosques alone....without the pantheon....

I also think if you get 4 cities early on, you are bound to have a religion with Ethiopia...considering you go for tradition. You might not be the 1st to get it but you will be among first three.

And in comparison to Shoshone there is no guarantee you will stumble upon any more ruins to boost your faith after pantheon and let`s say 100 faith addon. And without the terrain pantheon your bonus fades and in the end you can count yourself lucky to even get a religion...

I agree that terrain has a major role in all this but without the terrain and resource pantheon, Ethiopia in this circumstance deals much much better than Shoshone. It`s not about the late game, it`s about early game...

True, but the benefits of Shoshone ruin-picking are not limited to faith.

True that but you have to consider that you are bound to get some of those anyway when picking ruins. For me personally 4 options are good (culture, faith, tech, pop) so it`s 1/2 to get what I really need.

It`s different with faith because it`s 1/8 and even if you find 8 ruins there are chances you don`t get it. I would even dare to say that faith for pantheon or religion later on is the most valuable pick that you can get so pathfinder comes very handy in here

You may not be limited to faith with pathfinder but there are good chances you get what you need with scout anyway, at least some of it...Agree on the fact though that pathfinder is really an asset, simply because of avoiding those unpleasant rewards and giving you what you desire or need at that very moment.

Athenaeum said:

I just don't think that Ethiopia's Stele is a comparable bonus to what the Shoshone provide.

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I guess I could see how the Shoshone's Ruin-picking might be 'better', or more unique in a way, because it allows you to do something that's impossible for other Civs. No-one else can choose what bonus to get from a Ruin, no matter how hard they try. Faith-generation is something anyone could do though. Opening up Piety, building Stonehenge, allying with a religious CS, settling a Natural Wonder, these things could let you catch up to Ethiopia. So even though Ethiopia has an awesome bonus for faith, there's ways to catch up to them with a bit of luck and effort. In that sense, Ethiopia just gets increased currency generation, and the Shoshone an all new and truly unique ability.

A Religion is a very powerful thing to have though, and Ethiopia is almost guaranteed to get dibs on the first Religion, regardless of their Pantheon, Wonders, and Piety. They have continued and fast faith generation through the Stele and Shrines, whereas the Shoshone can only get them in bursts through ruins, which isn't the most reliable method. For the Shoshone, a good faith-generating Pantheon is way more important than for Ethiopia.

On top of that, Ethiopia can focus on other things while the Stele is doing its thing. You can even get them for free immediately in new cities through Tradition. It's totally safe and reliable. The Shoshone need to be lucky with the amount of Ruins they find.

So no, I don't think the Shoshone are inherently superior to Ethiopia. They're just different.