reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
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Yes it is.. its available to all 3 of them..
The Importance of National Wonders
- Thread starter sixty4half
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Yes it is.. its available to all 3 of them..
I suppose the happiness from Universal Healthcare is global happiness as opposed to local happiness from the other tenets?
Generally I think this policy works best for Freedom. It's not often you're able to get stock exchanges, mints, water mills, hospitals and medical labs in all your cities but for Order all your cities have monuments and Autocracy everybody will have a barracks.
Regarding the Grand Temple this is a tricky wonder to build. Temple's are very expensive to build and maintain without Piety and religious beliefs that provide temple bonuses. I really think you need the 2 early Piety Policies and maybe Theocracy to make Temples worthwhile. I think it probably works best to build the Oracle and put the free policy in Piety opener so you can build temples faster and then once you finish tradition take Organized religion so each city is now generating 5 faith. Theocracy might also be worthwhile as then your temples will generate +3 faith and +25% gold which is much better than just 2 faith per turn which is horrible for a 2 gold upkeep.
But you can also found your religion in a city that isn't the capital. Remember that your holy city only exerts faith pressure for 10 tiles so starting your Holy City in a more central location closer to other civs and CSs may be preferable. Ideally you want it on a coastal city or at least a city with rivers and access to at least 3 resources so you can hopefully attract some trade-routes.
That also removes a National Wonder from the build list in the capital so that is highly desirable.
Generally I think this policy works best for Freedom. It's not often you're able to get stock exchanges, mints, water mills, hospitals and medical labs in all your cities but for Order all your cities have monuments and Autocracy everybody will have a barracks.
Regarding the Grand Temple this is a tricky wonder to build. Temple's are very expensive to build and maintain without Piety and religious beliefs that provide temple bonuses. I really think you need the 2 early Piety Policies and maybe Theocracy to make Temples worthwhile. I think it probably works best to build the Oracle and put the free policy in Piety opener so you can build temples faster and then once you finish tradition take Organized religion so each city is now generating 5 faith. Theocracy might also be worthwhile as then your temples will generate +3 faith and +25% gold which is much better than just 2 faith per turn which is horrible for a 2 gold upkeep.
But you can also found your religion in a city that isn't the capital. Remember that your holy city only exerts faith pressure for 10 tiles so starting your Holy City in a more central location closer to other civs and CSs may be preferable. Ideally you want it on a coastal city or at least a city with rivers and access to at least 3 resources so you can hopefully attract some trade-routes.
That also removes a National Wonder from the build list in the capital so that is highly desirable.
Acken
Deity
Banks and Stock Exchanges are pretty common for a freedom science game.
sixty4half
Prince
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Okay noob question, what's the diff between local and global happiness?
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
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Well yeah since you don't always have that much production in freedom like you do in order or maybe autocracy. Investing gold by purchasing stock exchanges and banks will allow you to purchase important things that could be helpful in the future.
No, it is just local happiness, so pretty much the weakest happy ideology tenet.
Yes, because Freedom is weaker than the other two when it comes to happy tenets.
I could not more strongly disagree with these two points. If I found, temples early so I can buy some religious buildings. Those pay for themselves if you get them early enough. If I dont found, I wait until Industrial. The faith for GP is quite valuable. I do agree that the piety opener is decent as the spare pick waiting for Rationalism to unlock. I also agree that a coastal Holy City, and not automatically making the cap the Holy City are both strong play.
Each of Freedom's level 3 tenets is victory condition dependent where the other 2 would be pointless.
Taking them one at a time:
For science, it depends upon weather you'll knock off more turns in the game for rushing space parts via cold hard cash or GE.
Note that if going the cash route, this is combined with right side of Commerce, Big Ben if possible, while continuing to have completed Rationalism. This number of policies works much better if you can host the Worlds Fair as opposed to as AI hosting it.
For the GE approach, that will work better if you have completed Tradition so that you can faith buy some.
For Diplomatic, Freedom has a level 3 tenet that helps with this victory (free city state influence for those you have a trade route with.) This is a minimum of 8 city states that you probably won't need spies in to keep, thus freeing those to be diplomats else where.
Order doesn't have any CS bonuses.
Domination is the reverse, Order has a level 3 tenet benefiting conquest while Freedom doesn't.
For Cultural, both Freedom & Order have a level 3 tenet providing benefits. Freedom's only requires making Broadcast Tower a priority in the capital. (In end game, the capital likely to be where most of your tourism is being generated in due to National Wonders providing theming bonuses.)
Order has two things that if combined can provide more. However, one of them requires you to have a higher happiness than the AI, and with Immortal level AI happiness bonuses is difficult to get.
The other one requires the AI to have the same ideology. This suffers from if you are playing at too low a level for your abilities the AI taking way too long to reach an ideology. Even if at the right level, while the AI prefers Order when the human picks Freedom; nothing is more effective at preventing AI from in bulk being Order than the human being first to ideology and picking it.
Food cargo ship / caravan induced growth to the capital when combined with the Freedom specialist tenets (and having gone Rationalism for science bonuses from specialists to make this worth while) usually cause my capital to have filled every science + engineer + guild specialist slot at a minimum. When added to non-capital cities having filled all science slots, this provides more than Universal Healthcare.
Well I suppose if it pays for a religious building or a Great Person later there's value in it. I still stand by my point that Temples to build and maintain on mass is very expensive and will delay Libraries, National College, universities etc etc... without some help from Piety
Often on Diety AI will be founding religion before you get your pantheon. So to get early temples that means early philosophy so you may have to miss some of the other early techs you need.
Yeah no doubt that Universal Suffrage is one of the most powerful policies of Freedom and easily the best for Happiness but it comes at T2. Usually you want at least a couple of T2 policies so that usually means at least 3 T1 tenets in Freedom.
For me its usually in this order Avante Garde/Civil Society then Universal Suffrage than Universal Healthcare as I'm not fussed on the other T1 Freedom tenets.
Although If I have ideology problems Universal Suffrage will come earlier.
In my own games I always picked US as my first paid for tenet (I was always first to Freedom and so had 2 free level 1 already), not because I needed the happiness right away, but instead because a glance at where I was in the Golden Age counter showed normally showed that I would get 5 extra turns in a Golden Age if I did that compared to taking my 3rd (and normally final) level 1 tenet first.
Ok that I didn't know. Anyway it shouldn't really make a difference. Local happiness is only an issue in small cities right where for instance a size 3 city can't make full use of a colosseum, pagoda, stone works and circus.
By the time you get Universal Healthcare all your cities will be tall so local happiness is always welcome. Personally I don't mind the extra happiness. If you have 10 National Wonders that 10 happiness is equivalent to Notre Dam and helps you get some extra Golden Ages which Universal Suffrage will make even stronger.
One thing that is great with Universal Suffrage is that if you really are suffering from unhappiness from ideological pressure you can just keep turning citizens into specialists. So long as you have civil society you will have enough food to feed those specialists and Statue of Liberty makes them even stronger. Order and Autocracy can't do that and I think that gives Freedom a major leg up.
I definitely agree with postponing Temples to after NC and usually even after Universities. I only open Piety when I am pretty confident with my timing that I will only have one pick before Rationalism unlocks. Half price temples is very attractive, but you get that just from opener, so no compelling reason to do pursue Piety. The Grand Temple is a solid NW. Not as strong as NC and Oxford to be sure, but I think it competes with the others.
I hate that! If all I do is build one early shrine (in the cap), it happens in less than a quarter of my Deity games.
I didnt see myself or anyone else advocating for early temples. I understood you to be advocating skipping them entirely.
I agree that Universal Suffrage is very compelling. My problem is that I often am also counting on the Foreign Legion troops. If you get them as your first T2 pick, they are cutting edge. If you get them as your second T2 pick, they will be close to obsolete.
I agree that extra happiness is one of the most important features of ideology tenets. The main weakness with UH is that when it first unlocks you only have half of your NW. Also, since it is local and not global, you wont see the happy from any NW that are not in your cap.
Agreed, the synergy between those three (US, CS, SoL) is very nice!
Acken
Deity
Local happiness is the happiness produced by the city. It is Capped by population. So a size 3 city with a Colloseum and a Pagoda will provide only 3 happiness instead of 4.
Global happiness is just the total pool (what you see on top of the screen) and is the sum of all local happiness + "global happiness" sources like luxuries.
Global happiness is just the total pool (what you see on top of the screen) and is the sum of all local happiness + "global happiness" sources like luxuries.
Yes, Freedom's 3rd tier tenets appear to be very victory condition specific which is why I find them to be usually useless. Order's tenets are very beneficial no matter what you're doing. +50% trade route yield is amazing. Extra hammers from mines, amazing, +25% science from factories, incredible!! Freedom really can't touch these IMO. Especially the +25% science unless you have a bunch of academies planted.
Foreign Legions upgrade to Infantry and retain their unique promotion. The tenet itself permanently increased the free unit count even if you gifted them to city states.
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
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The good thing about the foreign legions is that they upgrade cheap without needing the honor social policy to upgrade. How much cheaperit would be if such a unit would be uupgraded by using military tradition.
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