Culture Flipping - Historical Examples

Originally posted by Zouave
If Culture Flipping made even a little sense Canada would have become part of America long, long ago.

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I think I see the problem here. You don't have a very sophisticated understanding of how civ empires relate to RL empires. Because Canada, in civ terms, is part of America.

1. The RL border is devoid of military units. In Civ, no matter how good of an ally another civ is, you ALWAYS put troops on the border.

2. If the UN voted to make the US or China king of the world, it wouldn't even be an issue how Canada would vote, because they're in our "culture." The question would be how the "Aztecs" (Latin America) and the "Persians" (the Muslim world) and the "Zulus" (Africa) would vote.

3. Canada is a military ally. They had troops in Afghanistan, yet were not attacked on Sept. 11. If an attack on New York City and Washington DC causes Canadian troops to see action, and that isn't an example of cultural assimilation, then I don't know what is.

The problem is that you're not being subtle or supple enough in translating the 200+ nations in the real world to the 6-16 Civ empites.

Here's another way to look at it...today, there's Europe and America. I'm not sure which camp you'd put Britain in, and whichever one they belong in, they could "culture flip" the other way if things break a certain way.

Here's another RL example (altho maybe a weak one.) Before 1989, the US had many troops in "Europe." The alliance was very tight. But with the collapse of the Soviet threat, "Europe" culture flipped back to independence. *AND* the military forces of "Europe" were greatly reduced (i.e., the "American" military units disappeared, and were replace by a lone mech. inf. unit in "Rome," "Paris," and "Berlin."

Try to be less literal minded, and I think you'll see what we are all trying to explain to you.

Dave brings up something very important that I think a great many people are overlooking.

Certain parts of Civ III have been designed around certain aspects of the real world, not designed as them. Try to think of the things that happen in a more broad sense. Like how a Tank 'unit' doesn't represent one tank, but a couple tank regiments, some mechanized Infantry (not the unit, but infantry in half-tracks and whatnot), a little Artillery support, etc. The same goes for naval units. A 'carrier' isn't just one carrier, it represents a carrier battlgroup, with small craft support. You can't look at culture flipping any differently. People shouldn't be looking for 'such and such city has abandoned such and such nation', but you need to look into the factors that might cause these things in the real world and how they might relate to CF in Civ III. In other words, you have to add a 'story' or an 'definitive explanation' to events that occur, and not say "well this is stupid all of the sudden a city I have 30 Modern Armor in just 'flipped'". You need to look further into it to be able to understand it. The people who hate the thing and would get rid of it in a second see it more as 'the city goes back after I captured it and my units were destroyed'. Others who don't mind it so much and are willing to accept it see it as 'when my troops entered the city, they were ambushed by some partisans who managed to re-take the city'. Far-fetched? Maybe, but I'm sure you can think of something better if you try.

The point is: Culture-flipping isn't just culture-flipping. Try to look more into it.

Originally posted by Zouave


This is why I try to restrain myself from looking in this goofy thread. Ah, the distortions.

As was posted months ago, East Germany collapsed because it was ECONOMICALLY bankrupt; politically too.

That does NOT mean "culture" did not play some factor. I always said it could.

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Economics and politics are as much a part of culture as literature or artwork.

I think we must understand a couple of things:

First, Civ III is a simulation game. This means, it's a simplified model of the reality, so we can't expect to see the game elements as complex as they are in the real world.

And second, at least for me, I understand culture in Civ III not only as the cultural influence per se, but a sum of cultural, economical, technological and political influence. A couple of examples:

Why american culture has spread so much in the whole world? Well, I think it's because they have the technological, economical and political means to allow that.

Take southern California for example. Los Angeles is the city with the largest mexican population after Mexico City, even not being a part of Mexico. Well, then, why doesn't they just "flip" to Mexico? Because the political and economical (and why not? cultural) influence of the US is so strong, that it reaches even further from the border.

Look, I'm in Mexico City, but I'm writing this in English, I'm listening to American music, this computer is made in the US and I work for an American company. AND THE LAST TIME WE HAD AMERICAN SOLDIERS IN MEXICO WAS WHEN THEY DISEMBARKED IN VERACRUZ NINETY YEARS AGO!!

So, the point is that culture comes along with politics, economics and technology. (and most of the times, military strenght is irrelevant).

Culture flipping is very annoying, no doubt about it...

I think they should have a warning system in place.. lets say the people like another culture etc.. they create a militia out of the unhappy citizens trying to oust existing power/army... if succesful the city culture flips...

This way as a player you can:

1- send in workers, settlers trying to outnumber the local culturally different people in the city

2- occupy the city with a large military to quell uprisings, if you city is full of unhappy poeple then it revolts and your army has to fight against the militia to keep the city...

This would work like a charm, no sudden flips etc...

That's true, a warning of some kind would be good. I mean, CF is a reality, but it doesn't happen that suddenly.

CF is meant to slow down an offensive. That means if it told you it was going to happen soon, you'd just move every unit out of the city next-door, wait until it flips, then take it back the same turn. Not much for hindering an offensive.

Answer to TRIP:

What I meant by warning of some kind, was more along the lines that some battle should ensue when the city wants to culture flip, your existing units in the city against the militia for example... If you have a large enough garrison I highly doubt the city would be able to flip but for "X" amount of turns it could be in civil disorder, and its militia troops could surrond the city attacking it etc...

Otherwise what is the alternative?
You have a HUGE army with a leader in the city, and "POOF!" they are all gone, not a single bloody battle, they just all disappeared??? at least kick them out of the city or something, cause it just doesn't make the game realistic otherwise...

Remember in CIV2 when you took over an enemies city you had those Guerrilla troops (think they were called partisans), that were loyal to the old regime (culture/civ).. something like that is what I am talking about...

Originally posted by teturkhan
at least kick them out of the city or something, cause it just doesn't make the game realistic otherwise...

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There are two purposes of culture flipping. One is along the lines of Canada and Mexico IRL. The other is along the lines of the Hessians and Englsih troops in the Revolutionary War.

In any event, you're missing the point. The purpose of the kind of culture flipping you're complaining about is NOT realism. The purpose is to slow down warmongerers.

Compare the Roman Empire to the Mongol empire. The former grew slowly, and each new territory was assimilated. And we are still impacted by the Romans.

The Mongol empire grew very fast. And they didn't worry much about assimilated/absorbing their conquests. And Mongolian culture had little if any influence.

Then, let's look at the Muslim empire that grew after Mohammed. It grew pretty quickly, and they worked on absorbing their conquests. The Swahili language of the East Coast of Africa is related to Arabic much like French is related to Latin. Look at the north coast of Africa.

See, rapid military conquest, without an attempt to spread your own culture, has no impact. I wonder what happened to the Mongol hordes when the Mongolian Empire disintegrated.

Through the Byzantine Empire, the Roman empire lasted over 2000 years.

There are many Muslims in Kenya and Tanzania.

The moral is, if you don't want your conquests to flip, either conquer slowly (Rome), or work like hell to absorb them (Muslims.) Don't be like the Mongolians.

Sure it slows down rapid expansion, but can you really say which way of conquest is more effective? Alexander the Great defeated the Persians and pretty much conquered their entire empire in a matter of years. Romans conquered over centuries, is one way better than the other? I think not. Mongols culture was nothing to boast about, yet they still maintained such a large empire OVER people whose culture was far more advanced than theirs. Culture flipping has little regard for the presence of a powerful army and that is my point. You should be able to maintain order if you have a large enough garrison in the city. I recall one time I had a HUGE army in a Chinese city that I had just taken over, the Chinese culture was much more advanced than mine… inevitably it flipped back to Chinese control, what happened to my great army? *POOF* they were all gone, not even a SINGLE unit escaped – that is just simple nonsense – come on nobody should buy that – its completely unrealistic.

I am not saying culture flipping should not happen, what I am saying however is that an army should not all of a sudden disappear off the face of the planet… sounds like a page taken out of the X-Files!

Originally posted by Flavor Dave

I think I see the problem here. You don't have a very sophisticated understanding of how civ empires relate to RL empires. . . Try to be less literal minded, and I think you'll see what we are all trying to explain to you.

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But you DO have a "sophisticated understanding" of this?!

Before 1989, the US had many troops in "Europe." The alliance was very tight. But with the collapse of the Soviet threat, "Europe" culture flipped back to independence. *AND* the military forces of "Europe" were greatly reduced (i.e., the "American" military units disappeared, and were replace by a lone mech. inf. unit in "Rome," "Paris," and "Berlin."

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First of all there was no ongoing war. Second, they did not disappear; they were eventually and consciously disbanded - and that was stupid and dangerous anyway. Half the U.S. Army divisions "disappeared" in the Nineties - and that was the result of Bill Clinton, not Culture Flipping.

I'm sure Canada would also appreciate your rermarks. Just be sure you don't let Firaxis sell you any Worldcom stock.

I could say more, but I'd get banned for a week.

Originally posted by rmsharpe


Economics and politics are as much a part of culture as literature or artwork.

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No, they are part of your Civilization. Marketplaces and banks do not produce "Culture" in the Firaxis definition and formula.


One programmer, who doesn't have any History credits as far as we can determine, dreamed this up and some people want to defend it. This really is a curious Sociological phenomenon.

Originally posted by Luis G.
. . .
Look, I'm in Mexico City, but I'm writing this in English, I'm listening to American music, this computer is made in the US and I work for an American company. AND THE LAST TIME WE HAD AMERICAN SOLDIERS IN MEXICO WAS WHEN THEY DISEMBARKED IN VERACRUZ NINETY YEARS AGO!!

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And the chance of it becoming part of America (the U.S.) controled by America IS ZERO.

The convoluted attempts to defend this CF concept, since there are NO historical "examples", is amazing.

Cities do not change their Civilization, one they have been a part of for millennia, based on a computer formula Soren Johnson of Firaxis concocted. Nor do garrisons vanish, nor borders flip over resources.

In the game marketplaces, banks, and the like do not produce "Culture".

Some attempt to incorporate economics, political strength,
military power - and "Culture" - TOGETHER to reflect the INFLUENCE of a Civ is fine with me; always has been. This could be manifested in many ways, even in war creating disorder, partisan units, more happiness or unhappiness, whatever. THAT would be the "sophisticated" way of handling it.

But what Firaxis gave us is arbitrary, simplistic, simple-minded, and just plain wrong.

Originally posted by teturkhan
Culture flipping has little regard for the presence of a powerful army and that is my point.

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A "sufficient" garrison has complete control of culture flipping. Sufficiency varies according to several factors, but is not more than (foreignpop+overlap)*2.

how often would an invading army outnumber the local inhabitants? They oust your army, your army of elite trained soldiers gets destroyed by miltia? I find that hard to believe...

the set point for needed units to prevent culture flipping is too high...

Originally posted by teturkhan


the set point for needed units to prevent culture flipping is too high...

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That's a completely different question than if flipping should occur at all. Now it's just a matter of what constitutes sufficiency. Merely having a force enough to conquer a town in an eight-week summer campaign is not enough. You must also provide the resources to occupy an unfriendly people over many years. Ipso facto, the resources required to occupy is larger than the force of conquest. As always, sufficient infantry is the key.


http://www.zachriel.com/Infantry.htm

I'm certainly not against having a slider for flipping, if someone wants to handicap the game, or to create a mod.

Originally posted by Zouave
And the chance of [Mexico] becoming part of America (the U.S.) controled by America IS ZERO.

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Yes, I do have a more sophisticated understanding of how the 200+ nations of our planet are represented by the 6-16 Civs in the Civ series. Here's the proof.

While you've got your panties in a wad, please tell me of one time in the last 5500 years when there were as few as 16 "nations," remembering that the Iriquois count as a nation.

You also didn't really engage my example of Canada. You just made a flippant remark. I'd rather you deal with my points.

The convoluted attempts to defend this CF concept, since there are NO historical "examples"

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Except for the countless examples people have been giving you on this thread.

Cities do not change their Civilization, one they have been a part of for millennia, based on a computer formula Soren Johnson of Firaxis concocted.

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The only thing that makes this statement true is the 2nd half, the part about Soren's formula.

Of course, that applies to every friggin' part of civ, so it begs the question of why you play the game. If CFing bothers you so much, then so should founding cities, city growth, shields, and on and on and on and on and on.

Nor do garrisons vanish,

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Except when they do. Hessians.

But what Firaxis gave us is arbitrary, simplistic, simple-minded, and just plain wrong.

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There are two kinds of flipping. One is when a city gets absorbed in peacetime. The other is when a conquered city reverts back to its own culture.

The way I read you on this subject, you confuse the two. You mix'n'match reasons why it's unrealistic, why it's arbitrary, why it doesn't work, how to fix it, etc.

To me, these are two separate issues. Are they two separate issues to you?

The convoluted attempts to defend this CF concept, since there are NO historical "examples", is amazing

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*AHEM*

The Ionian Greeks flipped from Persia. Ancient Israel flipped from the Romans. The West Bank and Gaza have been trying to culture-flip from Israel for years. Israel itself flipped from the Arabs. Persia flipped from the empire of the Medes. Kosovo attempted to flip from Serbia to Albania. Slovenia flipped out of Yugoslavia. America flipped away from Britain. Various tribes in the Aztec empire flipped to Spain when the invasion began. Texas flipped from Mexico. Both Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 flipped out of the Soviet sphere, and the Soviets sent in troops to reclaim them. Care to elaborate on how these are NOT historical examples of culture-flipping?

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But what Firaxis gave us is arbitrary, simplistic, simple-minded, and just plain wrong.

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Kinda like EVERYTHING on the Civilization series.

Strictly speaking and viewing CF only in the most narrow and literal contexts, CF doesnt really exist IRL. That is, a city doesnt switch alliegance to another country because the temples are cooler there, the shopping is better or they like the Britney albums.

But then the game doesnt really pretend to model reality, but is simply based on some real life concepts. Where else but a game could ANY GL do in 1-5 years what would take 200-1000 years without him?

The game Civs dont have to contend with a host of real life isssues, chief among them independence movements (VERY common IRL) and terrorism.

I submit that CF rather than being "simplistic", is not meant to reflect a *single* situation but an amalgam of real life conditions like independance and civil wars or where the national authority does not have control of the whole country. Examples of this are legion: Beirut controls the city on a good day, but hasnt controlled the country in years; ditto for Mogadishu and Somalia; Pakistan doesnt even pretend to exert authority over the tribal areas or Northwest Territory; France lost control of Canada and a sugar island(s) in the 1760s; the Brits lost all of the American colonies; Pakistan lost Bangladesh; Brits lost Transjordan, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan; the KSA-Yemen and KSA-Oman borders are dotted lines on most maps acknowledging that the bedouin tribes make their own rules and answer to no government; The Falkland islands of a few years ago; the breakup of artifical countries like Czech and Yugo into (over 10 and counting) smaller entities.

In all those those cases, the natural resources and revenues are/were lost to the government. It remains a mere technicality for example, that Peshawar shows on maps as inside Pakistan, for the tribal chiefs and mullahs exert control on the area and Islamabad gains nothing in the way of resources and taxes without their consent.

Without the threat of CF there would be little reason to build culture related improvements, just armies and the game would become a simple, 1 dimensional shoot-em-up.