Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

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For Ethiopia...

Add "Rock Hewn Churches" as a wonder. Add "build rock hewn churches" as a UHV condition. Have no idea on art for it though.

Mali
Establish a trade route worth x commerce per turn. Could change the university of sankore wonder to increase trade too (since it did increase the book trade). That would mean to acheive this condition
- Need to OB with another civ (foreign trade is worth more)
- Need to reveal a route to that civ (probably a work boat sails to the mediterranean)
- Need to make a large city in west Africa
- Extremely useful to build the University of Sankore in that city.
 
No worries about making the chinese UHV too easy lol
Not sure how I did it before, but I do have the save to prove it. My latest attempt was unsuccessful, I'm blaming it on not playing Civ since your disappearance....... yeah thats it......

Also, if your wanting to change the, no lose city condition, maybe it would be a good idea to make the third condition take the game into the modern era, seeing as how China is the longest surviving culture

maybe "have the only functional economy in 2010". Just kidding, I can't think of one right now, but I really think that would be a great idea. Then the chinese would have the uber-uhv, requiring an entire game of badassery to accomplish. It's already one of the hardest ones, might as well take it all the way.
 
The wonder error I had earlier seemed just confined to that one game. I played two more games as the French and the wonders worked well.
That's good to know :)

Not sure how difficult these ideas are the implement and not sure if they'd make it in time for the next update, but

Would it be possible to make a special type of neutral city that once captured is automatically razed? That way we can put a weak special neutral cities in places such as in southern Spain to represent Moors/Berbers and in northern Britain to represent the Scots without severely limiting city placement choice for players.
I think it would be possible to do something like that. But I personally don't think there would be much point to it and it could become rather annoying for new players to see their recently conquered city forced to be razed. Also, much of the hindrance these cities provide comes from their culture, so we'd have to limit that as well.
Seems like a lot of effort just to represent some arbitrary cultures in already crowded places.

It seems like the Arabs and Islam never spreads much throughout the Maghreb. Also the Turks usually are unable to overtake the Arabs as the predominant Islamic power as well. Is there some way to buff the starts of both Arabs and Turks somehow and increase the likelihood they take over North Africa?
That depends on which scenario you're playing. In 600 AD, Arabs usually expand quite a bit into the Maghreb, usually even to Tunis. The Turks are also more likely to take over the near east (although they seldom conquer Mecca). In 3000 BC, both are more conservative, which I think is because Egypt and Persia still being alive and hindering their conquests.
I don't think the Turks need a buff, but maybe giving Arabia some additional Camel Archers could be a good idea.

I know this has been asked a lot, but is there any way to make crusades happen? Maybe some quest or special event that involves the holding Jerusalem at some certain date, increase animosity between Islamic and European Christian states, and/or give an apostolic palace option to declare a crusade against whoever controls Jerusalem?
The Apostolic Palace already allows to decide to declare war on any non-believer civ. Because the AP is guaranteed to be Catholic in this modmod, it's the closest approximation we currently get.
That said, however, the game allows to simulate them more closely on an event level. I could imagine giving a player an event that announces that he's been chosen to lead a crusade, which he could accept (and so entering war with Jerusalem's owner and getting a crusader stack spawned somewhere in the Near East) or decline (getting punished with increased unhappiness and worse relations with its Catholic neighbors). Accepting could also start a quest that rewards you when owning Jerusalem (though I'm not sure what that reward could be).
The only problem is that I've never played around with the event system before and only have cursory knowledge of it.

But I've thought about it as well :)

Lastly, with a distinction between Catholicism and Protestantism, it might make more sense to spawn the US with a Protestant missionary or no missionary at all?
Rhye has already made it so that America spawns with a missionary of the world's prevalent religion. In my test games, there's a roughly 50% chance for each Christian confession, which I think is just fine.

Thanks. Your mod's amazing already Leoreth, and these are just tiny suggestions that you shouldn't feel compelled to make before your next update. I have no modding experience whatsoever so I'm not sure how doable these things are.
Thanks to you :) I hope I've made it clear why I can't account for all of your suggestions (at least immediately), but thanks for proposing them anyway.

dagriggstar said:
For Ethiopia...

Add "Rock Hewn Churches" as a wonder. Add "build rock hewn churches" as a UHV condition. Have no idea on art for it though.
I think I've even seen some art for them here on civfanatics. My question is more if they're all that significant? I mean, of course they're an incredible achievement of craftmanship, especially for their time and region, but we've already got a lot of Christian wonders, so what's so special about them? And would you have an idea for which effect it should have?

Mali
Establish a trade route worth x commerce per turn. Could change the university of sankore wonder to increase trade too (since it did increase the book trade). That would mean to acheive this condition
- Need to OB with another civ (foreign trade is worth more)
- Need to reveal a route to that civ (probably a work boat sails to the mediterranean)
- Need to make a large city in west Africa
- Extremely useful to build the University of Sankore in that city.
I personally think the Malinese UHV works well despite its repetetiveness.

jammerculture said:
No worries about making the chinese UHV too easy lol
Not sure how I did it before, but I do have the save to prove it. My latest attempt was unsuccessful, I'm blaming it on not playing Civ since your disappearance....... yeah thats it......
Well that's ... flattering.

Also, if your wanting to change the, no lose city condition, maybe it would be a good idea to make the third condition take the game into the modern era, seeing as how China is the longest surviving culture

maybe "have the only functional economy in 2010". Just kidding, I can't think of one right now, but I really think that would be a great idea. Then the chinese would have the uber-uhv, requiring an entire game of badassery to accomplish. It's already one of the hardest ones, might as well take it all the way.
That would definitely be one of those "tried to achieve but didn't" UHV conditions ;)

However, it's already been suggested here to use "Have X golden ages by 1850 AD" where X is a difficult but achievable amount. I think it fits, and it lets your game end when the glory of the Chinese monarchy reached its end historically. Going into communist era seems to be too much to me.

After reading back in the thread in an effort to remember what my chinese strategy was I came across another bug that I had come across earlier and made note of. It involved Arabia and my diplomacy screen going wonky. The details are on page 20 of this thread.
Will have a look at it.

Edit: Okay, while the exception message only gave me a very helpful "unidentifiable C++ exception" note, I think I know where that problem comes from. It's because Abu Bakr has no leaderhead button (look at his Civilopedia entry) and the foreign advisor screen seems to break when it starts to try drawing it. Because it breaks even before it can create the tabs at the bottom, you're stuck at that window forever with the same problem. So I'll have to make my own Abu Bakr button. Sounds fun ;)

Edit2: Done. It doesn't look pretty, but at least it doesn't break anymore.
Edit3: Now it's also pretty. A bit.
 
Inspired by Sword of Islam, I've spent my last hours coming up with individual "Dawn of Man" texts for all RFC civs. It has always bugged me that America gets a "It's 1776 AD and after much wandering, the American people have decided to found their first city" message, and it doesn't make much more sense for the other civs as well.

My general formula for those texts was to quickly state why it's this year your civilization is born in (which is weird for some civs that spawn earlier than they're supposed to, especially Japan*) and then to provide an outlook on what this civilization is going to achieve (I tried to cover their UHV in some way here).
For some earlier civs I had to stretch history a little bit, but I think that's forgivable. It also wasn't very easy not to become too repetetive, but I guess nobody reads all spawn texts in a row, so it won't matter.

I've uploaded the texts as a Word document, so please tell me if they're acceptable or what should be changed.

* I'm seriously considering to push the Japanese spawn back some centuries now.
 
I like the, but I think you can do with a little less focus on historical goals. It just doesn't sound as good compared with the more general statements in Sword of Islam.
 
I would've liked to, but SoI handles history much more precisely than RFC does. Most of the time when a RFC civ spawns, it's at the point of humblest beginnings. There's not much to say about that situation. Things that are distinctive for each civ often only happen later, which is why I always gave that little outlook/perspective.
 
I would've liked to, but SoI handles history much more precisely than RFC does. Most of the time when a RFC civ spawns, it's at the point of humblest beginnings. There's not much to say about that situation. Things that are distinctive for each civ often only happen later, which is why I always gave that little outlook/perspective.

Ah, so I see. Well then, I think they're all good in that case.
 
Haha, glad we're spamming you requests in next update as soon as you got back! :lol:

I played a game with Babylon (easiest difficulty and still couldn't do it :p), but how should I make use of their unique power of no resistance in conquered cities towards a victory condition? Is it all that useful at all? Also is there some way to know if you've not been the first to discover those techs the moment you weren't the first to discover one of those techs?

I haven't played with the Amerindian civs that much, but are the Aztec and Incan unique units all that useful towards reaching a victory condition aside from the fact they don't require iron? It seems Amerindian strategies are to just spam out enough of those units to stand up to dog soldiers. Perhaps through changing the abilities of those units (jaguar soldiers, quechua, and dog scoldiers) and adding variety to the native leader spawns (perhaps archers, promoted warriors, and /or later horse archers), Amerindian gameplay can be spiced up a bit?


I think it would be possible to do something like that. But I personally don't think there would be much point to it and it could become rather annoying for new players to see their recently conquered city forced to be razed. Also, much of the hindrance these cities provide comes from their culture, so we'd have to limit that as well.
Seems like a lot of effort just to represent some arbitrary cultures in already crowded places.

Is there some way of creating a separate color of independent player so players will know which will be automatically razed instead of captured? It might make for more fun gameplay if these civs have more immediate threats to take care of before setting their sites on loftier goals. Culture might not be too much of a problem since these cities would have nothing, be built in sucky locations, and could be taken care of in the first ten or twenty turns of a game.

I'm not that emphatic about this having to make it to the next update. If it doesn't, suppose will have to be depressed and rely more on WB to recreate Muslim influence in southern Spain then... :(
Spoiler :

 
Haha, glad we're spamming you requests in next update as soon as you got back! :lol:
I beg you, keep on spamming. Seeing so much activity in this thread is very motivating, even if it's all requests I can't fulfill shortly.

I played a game with Babylon (easiest difficulty and still couldn't do it :p), but how should I make use of their unique power of no resistance in conquered cities towards a victory condition? Is it all that useful at all? Also is there some way to know if you've not been the first to discover those techs the moment you weren't the first to discover one of those techs?
No, their UP doesn't help much with their UHV. I was already thinking about replacing it, but couldn't come up with a replacement that makes sense.

I'm not sure anymore, but I think the Babylonian tech condition is among those who immediately turn from "not yet" to "NO" in the victory screens after someone beats you to one of the techs.

I haven't played with the Amerindian civs that much, but are the Aztec and Incan unique units all that useful towards reaching a victory condition aside from the fact they don't require iron? It seems Amerindian strategies are to just spam out enough of those units to stand up to dog soldiers. Perhaps through changing the abilities of those units (jaguar soldiers, quechua, and dog scoldiers) and adding variety to the native leader spawns (perhaps archers, promoted warriors, and /or later horse archers), Amerindian gameplay can be spiced up a bit?
Yeah that's true. Holkans are especially useless as there are no horses in America. And I agree with you that the barbarian spawns could use a little variety.

Is there some way of creating a separate color of independent player so players will know which will be automatically razed instead of captured? It might make for more fun gameplay if these civs have more immediate threats to take care of before setting their sites on loftier goals. Culture might not be too much of a problem since these cities would have nothing, be built in sucky locations, and could be taken care of in the first ten or twenty turns of a game.
Well, as you might have noted, the "independent" cities are in fact to civilizations. We could reserve one of them for "minor" cities that are to be autorazed and give them an appropriate color, but again, that's sacrificing much for a small gain.

I'm not that emphatic about this having to make it to the next update. If it doesn't, suppose will have to be depressed and rely more on WB to recreate Muslim influence in southern Spain then... :(
Spoiler :

Now that I see your picture, barbarians might just do it as well. It all depends if the Spanish AI destroys Granada before it can grow or expand its culture. In that case, we would have or autoraze alread built in :D

PS: SoI is such an addictive modmod, I should long be sleeping by now ...
 
On the topic of barbarians, I have always felt that because of the current system, where barbarians spawn in the fog, they end up leaving the game entirely. I think it's be cool if they could make a comeback in the later game. One way of doing this would be have them be an effect of stability, so that if you are unstable, barbarians can spawn in your borders. This way stability would have more of an effect on the game. As it stands your either fine, or your cities are flipping. There is no middle ground.

The later barbarians could represent the warlords, terrorist organizations and criminals that arise in unstable societies. i really think this could add to the game immensely.
 
The later barbarians could represent the warlords, terrorist organizations and criminals that arise in unstable societies. i really think this could add to the game immensely.

So basically, Taliban? Or any other secessionists and rebels? I think it's a great idea, but they'd need to spawn inside your borders. Because in the late game, there isn't a lot of uninhabited land left except Alaska/North Canada, far east Russia, far south South America, and the middle of Australia.
 
First of all, fog of war doesn't affect barbarians in RFC at all. Their spawns are tied to region and a timeframe, so the reason why we don't see them in modern times is because Rhye didn't write any triggers for that.

And I'm not sure if terrorism is best represented by units of infantry spawning within your borders.
 
I'd have to agree with Leoreth, if you REALLY want to represent modern day terrorism, then you can ask Leoreth, to make it random events, which destroys buildings, or reduces your food supply (rather than reducing pop levels; which would mean they are killing thousands of people ;) ). But I really don't think terrorism can be shown like that. What I think would be better, is to have an event, that effects religious minorities in an empire. Just like in SoI, has that event where you need to crack down on the religious minorities, perhaps here would be a good place to put it as well; if you really want to that is.
 
I'd have to agree with Leoreth, if you REALLY want to represent modern day terrorism, then you can ask Leoreth, to make it random events, which destroys buildings, or reduces your food supply (rather than reducing pop levels; which would mean they are killing thousands of people ;) ). But I really don't think terrorism can be shown like that. What I think would be better, is to have an event, that effects religious minorities in an empire. Just like in SoI, has that event where you need to crack down on the religious minorities, perhaps here would be a good place to put it as well; if you really want to that is.

As long as we're talking about Vanilla or Warlords. Call me insane but I think espionage handles the terrorist aspect of RFC pretty well. Considering that you can cause revolts, destroy infrastructure and poison water supplies with it, there's not much room left for improvement. Maybe assassination, but there's not a credible effect for offing the enemy leader, let alone armies, in Civ universe.

Enough about that. But you know what Turk, your proposal for modern barbarians isn't so bad. I like the idea of unstable governments going into minor civil wars with it, but I'd like to think of them more as civilians forming their own anti-government, rebel militia. But that is probably what you meant with "terrorists" in the first place?

I don't know how easily codable it is, but wouldn't auto-drafting civilians as barbarians within city radius work even better if unhappiness hits "critical levels"? Even +3 unhappiness would be enough for it to become a gameplay quirk. Maybe it would make Totalitarianism more appealing a civic also?

Regarding the Babylonian UP, I still think 'No anarchy from revolutions' fits them the best. They have a very busy schedule to complete their UHV to begin with, a completely useless UP as it now stands and very bad stability, both internal and external. They're bound to fall sooner or later. With the Spiritual quirk, they'd have much easier time enduring their short spot in the limelight. They need it.

On the other hand, Ancien Régime remained in France for quite a long time. How would they exactly benefit from it? They have good stability, historically didn't change their civics all that much before the Revolution (known in some countries as "Great" for a reason) and certainly have more time to spend whipping peasants and qualting citizen unrest than Babylonians. Do they have anything else going for them except the Revolution and Salons?

And are you going to follow up with UP: Caste System for India?
 
Depends on what the effect would be. I vaguely remember we already had a discussion about that here, but I don't know the details anymore.
 
What I'm getting at is in modern day states that become unstable, you get warlords, terrorist groups, resistance groups, bandits etc, which in terms of civ could be represented by barbarian units. Obviously they would spawn as units that were consistent with the timeframe. Basically you get those who exist outside of society and seek to prey on or destroy said society = barbarians.

Also terrorism doesn't always refer to religious fanatacism. There was a guy in northern Alberta blowing up resource improvements, i.e.oil pipelines. He is also a terrorist.

Also I just Played a game as Greece, in which I'm pretty sure I won the UHV conditition based on conquest but didn't get the accomplishment. The Persians still have one city but I have two. This same scenario has played out for me once in the past. This is why I thought there was a bug

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What I'm getting at is in modern day states that become unstable, you get warlords, terrorist groups, resistance groups, bandits etc, which in terms of civ could be represented by barbarian units. Obviously they would spawn as units that were consistent with the timeframe. Basically you get those who exist outside of society and seek to prey on or destroy said society = barbarians.

Also terrorism doesn't always refer to religious fanatacism. There was a guy in northern Alberta blowing up resource improvements, i.e.oil pipelines. He is also a terrorist.

Don't forget barb transports that roam around Somalia. If we represent them as privateers, unpromoted transports could have an easy job of sinking them.
 
That's what I'm talking about. in unstable parts of the world, barbarians still exist.

Including them in Civ, could be good. Give you something to do with your units while your waiting for that tech to research or that wonder to build
 
The anger modifier sounds nice.

jammerculture said:
Also I just Played a game as Greece, in which I'm pretty sure I won the UHV conditition based on conquest but didn't get the accomplishment. The Persians still have one city but I have two. This same scenario has played out for me once in the past. This is why I thought there was a bug
First of all, impressive game, that's a quite historical Alexandrian Empire. But still, everything working as intended :)
Persia is fine, but you're also tasked to control Phoenicia, which Jerusalem is not part of. So you better wouldn't have razed Sur.

On the terrorism discussion:
I think one of the key factors in game design is abstraction. Terrorism can roughly be sorted into two categories: international terrorism (think Al-Qaida) and national terrorism (think ETA). The former is abstracted by foreign espionage, the latter by unhappiness. Unstable states collapsing into warlords etc. is already represented, by, well, collapsing.
That's the beauty of well-designed games like Civ and RFC: it's all already there, and a simple rule can represent many aspects of the real world. Adding to that would only needlessly complicate matters in my opinion.
 
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