I do it through Python, using a modified version of Tsentom's free specialist code.
New Leaders (art, personalities, diplomacy texts)
- Thread starter The Capo
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I do it through Python, using a modified version of Tsentom's free specialist code.
AbsintheRed
Deity
I think we can easily go with the trading bonuses too, but don't get rid of the exploring bonuses.
As you mentioned they are not that big of a bonus, but would flavour this trait very much. Maybe if we give scouts and explorers a free promotion connected to this it's not that weak
So the trait could be seafaring with exploration and trade flavour, as it should be.
I don't suggest all of these bonuses, these are just the best ideas so far:
- +1 movement or free promotion (Navigation I and/or Sentry) for naval units
- production bonus for early and medieval naval units and scouts, explorers
- free promotion for scouts, explorers (Mobility and/or Sentry)
- DPS of drydock, custom house, maybe market
- +1 trade routes per city
I still think production bonuses of scouts and explorers is a waste as they are already cheap and how many you need to build is so situation dependant. It's adding flavour yes, but little function and imo a waste of a trait 'slot'. Cheaper naval units is not too tricky to implement though.
Your suggestion of a free promotion is a better choice. However due to the way the XML works you cannot give one promotion to one type of unit and then another promotion to a different sort of unit. So you'd need a promotion that both Naval and Recon units can have. Looking through the list the only option (excluding promotions from GGs) is Sentry. So that could be an option.
Incidentally it is not easy at all to add +1 movement to scouts/explorers without giving it to all land units. Doable but very messy (involves separating all the land units and adjusting everything in game that refers to land units...).
Drydock is already made cheaper by Aggressive and I think the market is pretty important so that there is at least one relevant perk for inland cities.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Alright, drop the production bonus of recon units.
We don't have to add promotions to naval units. If we don't add any here, then we can choose from more promotions for scouts and explorers
Also, I'm aware that drydock has DPS for Agressive leaders, just thought maybe it suits Seafaring better.
So this leaves us with these options:
We don't have to add promotions to naval units. If we don't add any here, then we can choose from more promotions for scouts and explorers
Also, I'm aware that drydock has DPS for Agressive leaders, just thought maybe it suits Seafaring better.
So this leaves us with these options:
- +1 movement for naval units
- slight production bonus for early and medieval naval units - Caravel, Galley is a must have if we go with this option, and we can always drop Explorers back here if the majority (or Capo
) wants to - free Mobility and Sentry promotion to scouts and explorers - we can add both, neither one is that powerful, but together they can be very useful
- DPS of custom house, maybe 1-2 more from drydock, market, harbor, lighthouse - some of these are already used in other traits
- +1 trade routes per city
The Capo
godless Heathen
Lots to take in. And I'm drunk, so now i s not a good time to chime in.
I will say this, while I do take into account everyones positing, I do have the final decision. I don't mean this to be a dick, I have certainly opted witht he majority over my own preference on a few things, so we'll see what happens.
I will say this, while I do take into account everyones positing, I do have the final decision. I don't mean this to be a dick, I have certainly opted witht he majority over my own preference on a few things, so we'll see what happens.
The Almighty dF
Pharaoh
Alright, drop the production bonus of recon units.
We don't have to add promotions to naval units. If we don't add any here, then we can choose from more promotions for scouts and explorers
Also, I'm aware that drydock has DPS for Agressive leaders, just thought maybe it suits Seafaring better.
So this leaves us with these options:
- +1 movement for naval units
- slight production bonus for early and medieval naval units - Caravel, Galley is a must have if we go with this option, and we can always drop Explorers back here if the majority (or Capo
- free Mobility and Sentry promotion to scouts and explorers - we can add both, neither one is that powerful, but together they can be very useful
- DPS of custom house, maybe 1-2 more from drydock, market, harbor, lighthouse - some of these are already used in other traits
- +1 trade routes per city
I'd replace the +1 trade route with Drill 1 for all ships, personally. Fits more with the theme.
Also, remove market from the DPS list. The rest make sense, but market... not really.
Market makes perfect sense if the trait is a commercial/seafaring hybrid, which I think it should be to be balanced and not completely situational. Anyway, that's my proposal/opinion. Enjoy wading through all this discussion Capo
The Capo
godless Heathen
Alright, so I have read all of this stuff and here are my suggestions:
Seafaring/Enterprising
I'm still iffy on what I think we should do for Searfaring, here's Nationalistic:
Nationalistic/Secretive
These aren't meant as final suggestions, but I think we're getting closer to a final decision here. Please let me know if you think I have omitted anything important, or have gone overboard with one of these. I don't mind one or two DP buildings overlapping for the different traits, but if there are many it seems redundant. So we could always change a few of them for the vanilla traits. We're already changing soem fo the leader AIs.
Seafaring/Enterprising
- +1 Movement for Naval Units (no tech needed)
- Double Production Speed of Customs House, Drydock, Market, Harbor (Lighthouse removed, we could also remove one of these four, ideally I want three buildings)
- -50% Maintenance for Overseas Colonies (not sure how possible this is)
I'm still iffy on what I think we should do for Searfaring, here's Nationalistic:
Nationalistic/Secretive
- +2 Espionage Points per city
- +1 Happiness per National Wonder (in city built)
- Double production speed of Courthouse, Monument, Jail, (Mind Control Center), Barracks, Castle, Radio Tower (these can be dwindled, but that's just a preliminary list)
- No wait times between revolutions OR x2 bonuses for WLTKD
- No upkeep for either legal or government civics (just had this idea)
These aren't meant as final suggestions, but I think we're getting closer to a final decision here. Please let me know if you think I have omitted anything important, or have gone overboard with one of these. I don't mind one or two DP buildings overlapping for the different traits, but if there are many it seems redundant. So we could always change a few of them for the vanilla traits. We're already changing soem fo the leader AIs.
Vortilex
Imperator Mundi
Since trait concepts aren't my forte, I'm just going to go with what sounds good. Since these sound good: 
Actually: I have a question for you, Capo: How'd you get the Bush and Obama skins to fit so well on those leaderheads? (That was you, right?) I'd like to get that element of realism with Mugabe. Not Big Brother because he's all in your imagination if you read the book. Or is he?
Actually: I have a question for you, Capo: How'd you get the Bush and Obama skins to fit so well on those leaderheads? (That was you, right?) I'd like to get that element of realism with Mugabe. Not Big Brother because he's all in your imagination if you read the book. Or is he?
The Capo
godless Heathen
I had nothing to do with either of those LHs, but they are really good ones. I am not great at skinning either. I think cfkane is probably the best active skinner in the LH-making field.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
For Bush and Obama I remember there was a technique developed a while back where basically you copy a real-life photo our another image onto a LH's face.
I'm not sure how it exactly works, but my guess iss that's it is a lot "simpler" a process than it looks - it just requires tedious matching of the original picture onto the dds texture.
I'm not sure how it exactly works, but my guess iss that's it is a lot "simpler" a process than it looks - it just requires tedious matching of the original picture onto the dds texture.
MadmanOfALeader
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2008
- Messages
- 2,487
I think a food-production trait would change the game too much.
Some notes on these from a technical point of view:
Actually using a tech is the easiest and cleanest way of triggering this is Python. Just attach it to Sailing though and none will be the wiser
If you wanted to use Drydock here I'd suggest giving Aggressive the Stable instead. As for the Harbour, maybe give Expansive the Aqueduct instead?
Cool idea. I don't know if there's a specific function that checks if a city is overseas, would need to ask. Maintenance itself is not directly exposed to Python (I think) but can be achieved via a fake building.
One issue with this is that it will generate a massively long description in the Civilopedia and tooltips. It might be possible to circumvent this by assigning all National Wonders to a Special Building, but I don't know for sure.
EDIT: Just checked, special buildings only work for DPS bonuses, not happiness bonuses.
I'd suggest not taking the Courthouse away from Organized as that is vital to that trait. Happiness from Courthouse is viable though. Jail is very good choice imo. The others fit their current traits better I think.
These might be tricky to make work, particularly the latter. Beyond my skill at least.
Actually using a tech is the easiest and cleanest way of triggering this is Python. Just attach it to Sailing though and none will be the wiser
If you wanted to use Drydock here I'd suggest giving Aggressive the Stable instead. As for the Harbour, maybe give Expansive the Aqueduct instead?
Cool idea. I don't know if there's a specific function that checks if a city is overseas, would need to ask. Maintenance itself is not directly exposed to Python (I think) but can be achieved via a fake building.
One issue with this is that it will generate a massively long description in the Civilopedia and tooltips. It might be possible to circumvent this by assigning all National Wonders to a Special Building, but I don't know for sure.
EDIT: Just checked, special buildings only work for DPS bonuses, not happiness bonuses.
I'd suggest not taking the Courthouse away from Organized as that is vital to that trait. Happiness from Courthouse is viable though. Jail is very good choice imo. The others fit their current traits better I think.
These might be tricky to make work, particularly the latter. Beyond my skill at least.
The Almighty dF
Pharaoh
Honesty, I'd much prefer the decreased cost of national wonders be kept in. At least a small percent. When you look at many (insane) nationalistic leaders, you notice they're kind of obsessed with this stuff.
Totally agree with making monuments cheaper, as that also makes realistic sense.
I'd personally make it overall:
Nationalistic
- +2 Espionage Points per city
- +1 Happiness per National Wonder (in city built)
- Double production speed of Courthouse, Monument, Jail, (Mind Control Center), Radio Tower
- x2 bonuses for WLTKD
- 20% decreased cost of national wonders
and for Seafaring:
Seafaring
- +1 Movement for Naval Units (no tech needed)
- Double Production Speed of Lighthouse, Drydock, Harbor, Customs House.
- Drill 1 for all naval units
I'm against adding anything that doesn't make sense just to make it a "Better" trait. If that alone isn't powerful enough, we could add back the decreased cost for maintaining colonies.
The Capo
godless Heathen
Personally, I think the Seafaring suggestions are fine. I don't think it is over or under-powered.
I think for Nationalistic we can remove the last two options. Firstly, it will make it easier to implement (and for the AI to understand) and secondly I think the others are good enough, combined with spy promotions the +2 espionage is a really good advantage. I think we should remove the Courthouse from the list and replace it with the Intelligence or Security building. We could also stand to remove a couple of the others as well (i.e. whichever ones are used for another trait).
I think for Nationalistic we can remove the last two options. Firstly, it will make it easier to implement (and for the AI to understand) and secondly I think the others are good enough, combined with spy promotions the +2 espionage is a really good advantage. I think we should remove the Courthouse from the list and replace it with the Intelligence or Security building. We could also stand to remove a couple of the others as well (i.e. whichever ones are used for another trait).
The Almighty dF
Pharaoh
How about we replace Courthouse and Radio Tower with both the intelligence agency and security building?
Also, if we're giving the axe to cheaper national wonders, I'd maybe switch +1 happiness in that one city to +1 happiness within the nation. Your nation's people are happier that they have a new wonder to show off, after all. Makes more sense to me.
The Capo
godless Heathen
That's a good point, however it is difficult to do it globally. What we could do to offset it is make it +1 happiness, and +1 culture. Culture in Civ expands borders, so in a real way I think the culture is more appropriate than the happiness, and we don't give global happiness, which could be overpowered. So I think it is a good balance between the two.
EDIT: Another idea would be to make it so that the Olympics give double bonuses when in your country (like how Hitler tried to use the Olympics as Nazi/German propaganda, or how the US does it everytime we have it...).
EDIT 2: I'm also kinda drunk, so if any of this makes no sense let me knnow.
AbsintheRed
Deity
TAdF, why do you want to add Drill I so desperate to the seafaring trait?
It seems noone backed your idea, yet it's always in your suggestions
It's the same with me and my improved scouts/explorers
Seriosly, I consider Drill a military promotion, and don't think it's the goal here.
Also, please don't give just naval bonuses to Seafaring. I think it would be very bad if we have a trait totally unusable on some map types. It's not a problem if it's a strong trait in some cases and weak in some others depending on your starting situation, but have at least some small bonuses in all cases. I think Edgecrusher and Xyth share this view too...
So I would either go with the free promotions to scouts and explorers (as I already mentioned a couple times before) to represent better exploration.
Or go with Xyth's suggestion, and include some kind of improved trade. +1 trade routes and DPS of market and custom house sounds good enough for both coastal, both mainland civilizations.
As Xyth stated before, most cases the reason for seafaring was to seek/have better trade options. And I think in the other cases the reason was exploration, so actually, having both these bonuses would be the best IMO
Back to seafaring: Capo's suggestion, the maintenance reduction for colonies is also a good idea.
One last thing what we may use here is that drydock is only availeable at steel. There is no production or xp bonus for classical and medieval naval units, though that would fit the theme too...
Just to sum them up:
EDIT: Of course it's a little much this way, I myself wouldn't add all of them. But keep in mind, that none of these are a so big bonus, so if we drop or reduce a few it will be ok.
In mainland it will be a weak trait, and in terra or other maps with big oceans it's a strong one. But not insanely unbalanced on neither
EDIT2: Actually the maintenance reduction for colonies is sort of represented in the increased trade. At least the effect is the same. So we can easily drop that one
It seems noone backed your idea, yet it's always in your suggestions
It's the same with me and my improved scouts/explorers
Seriosly, I consider Drill a military promotion, and don't think it's the goal here.
Also, please don't give just naval bonuses to Seafaring. I think it would be very bad if we have a trait totally unusable on some map types. It's not a problem if it's a strong trait in some cases and weak in some others depending on your starting situation, but have at least some small bonuses in all cases. I think Edgecrusher and Xyth share this view too...
So I would either go with the free promotions to scouts and explorers (as I already mentioned a couple times before
) to represent better exploration.Or go with Xyth's suggestion, and include some kind of improved trade. +1 trade routes and DPS of market and custom house sounds good enough for both coastal, both mainland civilizations.
As Xyth stated before, most cases the reason for seafaring was to seek/have better trade options. And I think in the other cases the reason was exploration, so actually, having both these bonuses would be the best IMO
Back to seafaring: Capo's suggestion, the maintenance reduction for colonies is also a good idea.
One last thing what we may use here is that drydock is only availeable at steel. There is no production or xp bonus for classical and medieval naval units, though that would fit the theme too...
Just to sum them up:
- +1 movement speed - this is a must have, the actual seafaring bonus here
- DPS of drydock - the increased production and xp goes very well to the seafaring concept
DPS of harbor, custom house, market - mainly for better trade - +1 trade routes per city - the main trade bonus
- free Mobility and Sentry for scouts and explorers - the exploration part
- slightly decreased cost (-20%) of Galley, Trireme, Caravel and medieval ships
- small maintenance reduction for colonies
EDIT: Of course it's a little much this way, I myself wouldn't add all of them. But keep in mind, that none of these are a so big bonus, so if we drop or reduce a few it will be ok.
In mainland it will be a weak trait, and in terra or other maps with big oceans it's a strong one. But not insanely unbalanced on neither
EDIT2: Actually the maintenance reduction for colonies is sort of represented in the increased trade. At least the effect is the same. So we can easily drop that one
AbsintheRed
Deity
That sounds good to me. Courthouse is better at Organized, and Radio Tower and Monument is ok at Charismatic. On the same thought the WLTK bonus would suit Charismatic better than Nationalistic...
What? You serious? We have 12-15 national wonders, that would make 12-15 happy faces in all your cities. You can't think this would be good for gameplay
The plus 1 happy (in city built) what makes this well balanced IMO, it means a strong bonus to small nations with few cities, and a weaker one for big empires (they can't have the extra happiness in all of there cities, just in a few ones)
I think for Nationalistic we are closing for a final decision.
Right now my suggestions:
- +2 espionage points/city
- +1 happy per NW (in city built)
- DPS for Jail, Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau, and Mind Control Center
- No wait time between revolutions
The Capo
godless Heathen
I am not entirely in agreement with you that Seafaring needs something "else" for other maps. The only feature of the trait I have mentioned that would be worthless on a specific type of map is the +1 Movement. I'm not sure if the colonial maintenance is moddable (I'd like to avoid as much python as possible too), not to mention not every trait winds up being worthwhile every time. I've played plenty of games where protective has been worthless to me.
So here is what I think Seafaring should be:
So here is what I think Seafaring should be:
- +1 Movement for Naval Units
- Double Production: Harbor, Customs House, Drydock (no Lighthouse or Market)
- And I'd say one more, which can be picked from these: Promotion to Explorers/Scouts, +1 Trade Routes Per City (although I want this to focus on sailing, not sailing for profit, if you want a civ like that you should pick a Seafaring/Financial leader), -50% Maintenance for Colonies
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