New SG!!! Regent? Emperor?

Pre-flight check – Palenque is in serious jeopardy. Inca won’t even talk to us. Good news is that one warrior is fortified across a river, and the vet is at 2/4. I still feel it is a lost cause though, and I am forced to abandon it. L Bonampak has a worker done, but won’t grow for three more turns, so I change it to spearman to avoid wasting turns. BTW, if Bon. Gets fried by that volcano down the road I’m gonna have to say I told you so. L Yax is building granary, but already has happiness issues and CI is building Pyramids so ….. I change it to temple so we can grab the horses that are just outside borders. Also MM so it will have 18 left instead of 20 in two turns so I can pop rush to finish it and only cost one citizen. Copan will finish temple in two turns so I change one citizen to tax collector for these turns. This also brings us back to no gain/loss per turn. That’s especially important as we only have four left in the treasury. Not many options in Tikal so I leave it as is. CI is well into Pyramids so I’ll leave that, but it should be defended by more than just a warrior.

General observations: There are borders to our south, Probably Aztecs if cultural linking was left on. They could be a good or bad down the road. We need more workers. We only have four and they are currently all working jungle squares. We MUST meet more civs soon or we’ll never trade anything. L An extension of that is we must also explore more as there are only a couple of good city sites in view. A bit more money would be nice, so when iron working finishes in 3 I’ll go back to a (slight) profit economy. If we don’t have iron in all these hills around us, I may break my conquests CD. There is also a goody hut right outside Yax.

Here goes nothing.

1. 1500 bc – this turn is already done, does it still count as mine?

2. 1475 bc – not much doing. Move pal warrior, move workers to connect Bon.

3. 1450 bc – copan temple -> worker. Workers connect Bon. Rush temple in Yax send spare warrior south to meet our new neighbors. Aztecs found Calix. Just south of our capitol and claim incense there.

4. 1425 bc -- iron working -> writing in 9 spear thrower in copan defeated att. Barb IBT Yax temple->settler Hallelujah! We have iron two spaces south of our capital, within our borders. Send 2 workers to road it. Barb also appeared near BON. IBT

5. 1400 bc -- Tikal spear -> worker Our golden age will be starting next turn as a warrior is about to attack Bon next turn, and we have a UU defending across a river.

6. 1375 bc -- Should have known, they didn’t attack, but they did pillage our road. Bon spear -> spear we get 50 gold from the hut near Yax I don’t attack with jav as I would rather avoid a golden age this early

7. 1350 bc – our warrior near yax sees 3 furs 5 SW of yax can now see Iroquois town of Allegheny to our NW

8. 1325 bc – IBT out spear in Bon defends and promotes Inca want all our gold plus 1 gpt for peace, I doubt it! We meet Aztecs, they have no techs but I sell them myst for all their gold (108)

9. 1300 bc – not much doing. We did defeat warrior attacking Bon IBT – they now only want 60 for peace. They still have one warrior in our terr. And I think I can get them lower.

10. 1275 bc – Tikal loses citizen to disease, same turn worker is done, net loss of 2 pop points. Worker -> temple send workers to connect Bon and future fur city

11. 1250 bc – IBT chasqui scout moves near Bon will have writing in 1 so I adjust slider down to get extra 20 gold I intend to end war as soon as we defeat a couple more of their units because of this I change Copan to settler, now I just on need an escort as he’ll be done in 1 so I divert warrior going to Iroquois

12. 1225 bc – we get writing switch to Lit in 13 as this is slowly researched by ai. I thought of Phil., but I didn’t think we’d be first so it’s useless to us. We have connected iron Copan settler -> sword

13. 1200 bc -- Finally give in and pay the 60 gold for peace (really kills me to pay for peace, but we can’t win right now and we really need to be expanding.)

14. 1175 bc – rookie mistake L, I let CI fall into disorder :wallbash: bastard Inca just put a city north of Yax and grabbed one of our dyes

15. 1150 bc – snoozefest, except I did find the coast NW of Bon Yax settler in one so I MM to get a turn of two scientists

16. 1125bc -- more sleeping I do see a barb hut but I will try to contact Iroquois before I risk our Jav on it Coastal spice city in two, fur city in five, settler from Bon. in five

17. 1100 bc – IBT an Iroqouis warrior takes barb camp, but now we have contact. Unfortunately they have nothing, except for 34 gold. I’m beginning to think I should have gone for Philosophy ….. GODDAMN GREEKS BEAT ME TO THE FURS BY THREE TURNS!!!!! I will divert to find a new location for the city. Someone else will have to meet the greeks as we have no spare units in the area at the moment.

18. 1075 bc – The Iroquois are building Pyr, good luck, we’ll have it in 12 Lagartero founded, start Curragh

19. 1050 bc – Copan sword-> worker sword sent to ruins of Pal. Settler from Bon in two, maybe we can get Palenque back?

20. 1025bc – find a new site for “fur city” on the coast and surrounded by BG tiles.

21. 1000 bc – I don’t think the first turn was mine, and at any rate this seems like a more obvious place to stop Quirigua founded, we can still grab 1 fur w/cultural expansion so I start temple. We lost site of Palenque to damn Incas.

Some closing thoughts: I wasn’t able to build many workers, so we’re still short on those, especially with the amount of jungle we have to deal with. Any more expansion will probably have to be east or west. I also had no extra units to explore with, although this seems to be a small map, so that shouldn’t handicap us too much. Our military is barely adequate. We do have a few warriors kicking around that could be upgraded, but we have no barracks. The treasury is in much more respectable shape. I would say we need to finish the expansion phase, salting in a few military units during, and then we can have our revenge on the idiot Incas. I mean really, don’t they know what they’re up against?

You’re up Pindicator, hope I gave you something to work with. J

Wes

PS -- I would really like to avoid any fighting till we get a new govt so our GA is more effective.

Sorry I didn't wait for your input guys, won't happen again. :wallbash:
 
there's no obligation to wait for input or even to take it Sesn. They are your turns, and you can do whatever you want with them. I will keep on the Pyramids build, but with the AI build bonus I doubt we'll be the ones who build it... Then again, maybe it will be a good pre-build for the Great Library; who knows how this will pan out? There's still a lot of game to go

Edit: Did you post the save file Sesn?
 
At regent we're on an even level with the ai -- what bonus?

Edit - Personally, I don't like the GL at this level as there should be no reason we can't outresearch the ai.
 
haha, you're right we are on regent. I was going through the game looking as if we were on Emperor. I guess if it's just regent then we're fine.

Silly me :crazyeye:

And this is my got it.
 
Wes, I think that that was great 20. Always seems the AI is a couple steps ahead in the lux hunt no matter what the level. Considering we had 1 warrior guarding CI and were in the process of building a 6-lane super-highway right to it for the Incas to advance, great tribute to the AI's stupidity. You guys think we should go for GA on gov't upgrade? Also, didn't sense Inca tripped their GA either. So we take them on, may be kicking both GAs off.
 
I think you very well may be right about the simultaneous GA's but If we are prepared for the war (as we have no reason not be since it will be at our choosing) then they will be at the disadvantage and we should cripple them before they can benefit from it.

I know at least of couple of you are builders so my thoughts should be categorized as leaning more towards warmonger. ;)
 
Finished my turns, but it's so very late... Will post write-up (and hopefully a screenshot, if I can get the capture to work right). For a quick synopsis, I didn't take the Mayan civ in the direction I originally planned to: for example, completing the Pyramids triggered our GA, so I used that to build up infrastructure, produce a few settlers, but mainly worked on improving the civ we have now and building a small military composed mostly of horsemen for quick travel. I built another wonder, contacted two more civs, and gained us all the techs minus Currency (4 turns left) needed to get out of the AA.

Yawn, will post more in the morning, but am so tired now :sleep:

Here's the save.

Oh, and we are all moving to a 10-turn cycle now, right?
 
Concerning the 'leave my territory or declare war':

This can be double edged sword: It may work even when someone want's to start a war at you when he tries to sneak to some weaker defended town deeper in your territory. Some time ago i had a game where some ai sends ~10 cavs every round in my territory. They were furios at me and wanted a war. But they always retreat when i wanted it for more than 10 turns. Just because they had no chance to capture my border towns, which are heavily defended and wanted to the weaker ones. Declaring war during my turn would result in an slaughter of his troops. After 10 turns he declared, maybe was p****d off enough.
But when someone wants to attack you and is already near a weak defended city there is no reason why he should retreat.
I don't looked at the save, but early on the ai is often hunting for barbs. They rarely go to war when there is a lot of open land to settle. And when not in a position to defend in a war, there shouldn't be done anything to force someone to war.
 
@ yoshi -- I would say that's probably an accurate assessment. However, in Conq's defense, I personally don't see the ai barb hunting with a mini-stack of units thast early in the game very often.

@pindicator -- looks like you had a great 20! I didn't expect the Pyramids to trigger a GA, should have expected that one. :( Tough to make any assessments without a screenie/save (I'm at work now :( ) but it seems that we have overcome our little Incan problem. The horseman won't be quite as effective as swords right now, but they do have a good upg path so we should be in great shape later.

@m60 - you're up, I believe. I would recommend to continue the expansion as much as possible before we consider any war. I don't know how much of the map Pind uncovered, but the should also be a priority. At this point, there's probably not much need to get the ai's research as we should be able to outresearch them.

As far as the Incans go, I didn't really want to go after them now, as our previous skirmish set us back a bit. I merely meant that when the time comes, they should be our first target. :slay:

M60 -- up now
Reg -- on deck
Conq -- after that
Wes -- will be waiting a while
Pind -- Just went

And yes, I believe we did agree to go to ten turns now
 
Cool. I have a band concert to attend tonight, but I'll try to download and get my ten in afterwards. No problem being the good neighbor, either, since the Pyramids triggered the GA.
 
Has anyone put any thought into a victory condition we want to shoot for? I know it's still early but if you guys are thinking cultural, we need to think about wonders and temples and libraries. Personally I lean more towards the military types, but I have had a few cultural too. I don't really care which way we go, so long as the Incas don't see the endgame. :evil:

Also we should be thinking about a govt to switch to soon. I like Monarchy at this stage of the game, but Republic could also be good if we aren't fighting, tho unit costs can be prohibitive this early in the game. Feudalism is also an option, but I've never tried that so I can't comment on it.

Comments?
 
I have some...
Feudalism is very effective for an ICS build.
With more cities you'll be able to support a HUGE army.It is esp useful if you are thinking of the conquest victory condition. However I can only say that it is the only good thing about Feudalism.
Would like to see more comments on it though. :)
 
Originally posted by SesnOfWthr
Also we should be thinking about a govt to switch to soon. I like Monarchy at this stage of the game, but Republic could also be good if we aren't fighting, tho unit costs can be prohibitive this early in the game. Feudalism is also an option, but I've never tried that so I can't comment on it.

Comments?

I always have problems deciding about Govt switches at this stage of the game with a non-Religious Civ. Republic takes a while to research and Feudalism is even farther, but Monarchy is much quicker to get to. It's also almost impossible to buy govt techs from the AI. If we switch to Monarchy because it's easier to research, we then need to decide whether to stay in Monarchy until Democracy, or do we switch to Republic if/when we get it? Two anarchy periods is not worth it IMHO, so with a non-religious Civ I usually go from Dep->Rep->Dem, but I'm never sure whether I'd get more overall production if I'd gone Dep->Mon->Dem, or if I'd get more overall production if I'd gone Dep->Feud->Dem or even Dep->Mon->Feud->Dem because I'm war wongering in the early middle ages. I'd love to hear other opinions, which is exactly why I joined a SG.

IMHO, we need to stay peaceful for a while and claim as much land as we can to take advantage of the Pyramids. Crank out Settlers, Workers and defence units and expand and defend ourselves. With all our cities on rivers, and three luxuries, we should be able to grow our core and outlying cities quickly and then eventually out-research and out-produce the AI. At this point, we should crush the worthless Incans, possibly with an army of Knights or possibly an army of Cavalry, depending on how much land we grab and how long it takes to get productive.

At this point, I'd either be shooting for a military-type victory. It's possible that there's another big Civ out there somewhere that we won't be able to crush under our hells once we get productive, in which case I think we might need to shoot for a Spaceship victory.
 
So here's a summary:

Feudalism -- good for a large number of smallish cities. Probably not a viable option for us as we have more of an OCP type of layout. By the time we get Feudalism several of our cities will be bigger and decrease the benefit of this govt., and continue to decrease it over time.

Republic -- good for a builder type of victory. The unit costs in Repunlic, along with war weariness, means that this could be a very difficult govt to manage for a military victory. Can be productive with a series of short wars. Wars must be planned and executed carefully to maximize potential of this govt. No military police.

Monarchy -- Much better for a military victory. Support costs are lower, and war weariness nonexistent. No bonus commerce makes it less effective for builder type of victory. Max of two (or three?) MP for added happiness.

Basically we come back to the original question: what kind of victory do you want?

Here's my overall suggestion: Finish expansion phase, switch to Monarchy, do some "violent expansion", and see where we are when Democracy rolls around. At that point both spaceship, diplo, and military victory should be equally feasable, and if we pay attention we could even have a shot at cultural. i do beklieve that we have a small map so that would add difficulty to cultural.

I do agree that we should only have a maximum of two govt. changes in the game.
 
Hey, having difficulty with a screenie... maybe I'm trying too hard and doing the wrong thing. Anyway, just print screen to paint doesn't seem to be working.

Because I played civ too late last night, I woke up too late this morning, and have to leave pretty much right away to take a friend to the airport (about a 2 hour drive from here). I will be able to post the write-up tonight for sure, but not a screenie :(

Maybe the next person can throw a screenshot up from the beginning, but we are in pretty good shape overall.
 
From what I heard, it looks like we are regaining our power in the game.

@pind: I too tried a screenshot, but to no avail.
@Sesn and Rdo: I think we should not go for conquest victory, but just kill off the Incas because they are becoming a major pain in the @R$E. I prefer spaceship, the wuss victory, but from what I see in our continent, it looks as if our production will not be high enough.
 
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Alrighty then. To review the situation on starting my 10:

We’re in GA, but at the tail end of it. We’re #1 in pop, production, GNP.
Everyone’s polite towards us, even the Incan scuzball Pikachu.
City count America, Inca, Aztec (10) Iroquois, German, Mayan (8) Greece (5) Korea undiscovered
Science count. We’re up:
On Iro- CL, Lit, HB, Poly, Const
Greece- Philo, CL, Lit, MM, Poly, Const
Germany- Philo, CL, MM, Const
America- Philo, CL, MM, Poly
Aztec- Poly
Inca- We’re even.
Presume the Koreans are still trying to rub two sticks together to get warm.

Military advisor says we’re at par or better than all, except Inca. I’ll fix that.

Pre-turn- Change Quirigua entertainer to tax collector. Go from +3 to +5GPT. Learning point here, that I picked up on from some of the experts. You can opt for a specialist other than entertainer to avoid disorder. It just depends how discontent they are. Can pick up a little science or tax income that way. CI horse to Copan, JT to Lagerto. I see a barb encampment, but no JT’s enroute. Don’t forget, we can capture these dudes! Barbarian Farming for Fame, Fun, and Profit, it is a known, perfectly legal practice. Add them to a city if you like, call it “Barbarianville”

Moving on, turn 1. Enough with the thin military, time to put some meat on these bones. Copan, horse->sword, Yax worker ->settler.

America, Germans building GL. See our eastern galley is listing hard starboard, taking on water, 1 hp left/3. The pumps have gone into operation, but we hit a barb galley, and we may lose her. Back to port to effect repairs.

IBT Jerko Pikachu builds Oracle in Cuzco., Germans building TA.

Turn 2: Lagerto court->temple. Afraid we won’t get the fur otherwise if Greece beats us to culture jump. Tikal settler->sword.

Turn 3: Lazapa founded, spear in 10. OK, now I take a stupid pill, didn’t throttle science rate down with currency due in 1. Good thing I added the tax man, should pay for that mistake by the time we get tanks. Republic next. But looky here, who shows up at CI? We hit the jackpot, SGL.

Turn 4: Copan sword->sword. CI library-> TA, now due in 1 with help from our SGL.
Contractor arrives to put new addition on our palatial estate.

IBT: Aztecs get GL. America building Gwall, Inca and Germans working TA. Save your strength, boys.

Turn 5: CI- Wonder #3 is in. Sword up next. Yax settler->worker. Incas will try for GW next.

Turn 6: Bonampak change build queue with TA in, temple-> market. Our north horse found a barb encamp with 2 defenders, Inca archer next door. We climb hill to hope Inca wins during IBT, leaving one defender for us to finish, so we collect the gold. Calamul finishes cat, adding another.

Turn 7: Collect 25g from barb encampment, thanks to our Incan “friends” who won the battle we needed. CI sword->sword, Yax worker->spear. Notorious Mayan mobster Bugsy Siegel founds Las Vegas in the desert. OK, I stole the name from Abe, but all you skeptics are going to see this place take off. It SCREAMS pre-build, which I’m surprised no one’s brought up. Monty’s still happy, even though LV is parked up against his city. We’ll see how happy he is when we flip his places.

IBT Greece completes Colossus. Big deal. Congrats Al, Monty is probably putting you on his dinner list, as the main course!

Turn 8: Our GA is now but a memory. Iroquois and Abe have two settlers almost to the sw coast to plop down a settler. Sorry lads, this is MAYAN territory now: Piedras Negras founded. News from the Admiralty/ East galley reports: Land ho! Could this be a deserted isle?

Turn 9: CI sword->sword, Tikal sword->spear. Now the JT I sent to hunt down that barb encampment I mentioned earlier gets to earn his pay. Kills barb, gets promoted, gets 25 gold, gets slave! Barb assigned to Civilian Conservation Corps. Otto’s now cautious, he’ll probably want the standard 21 gold plus territory map for all the insults he’s put up with. Galley reports they smell kimshee coming from the new island. No sign of people, but there’s a border.

Turn 10: Dratted luck, more border, no still nothing more on the island. I guess next turn Christopher “Reg” Columbus can do the honors. Military now at par with the Incans.

Analysis to this point. My tea leaves say Monty takes on Alex, given the relative strengths there. More concerned with Pikachu. Figure once Otto tries to get gold from us, and IMHO we should consider obliging, he’ll try to pick on Inca next, and that will be the start of the war we need to take advantage of. Incans already have more room to build north. They add Otto’s territory to the package, and we’re sandwiched between two big, bad guys. Don’t see the other three players as more than fodder. If by chance it pans out along this route, suggest re-queue the cities for max-military, and take it to those clowns, around turn 4-6. That will have pulled his offensive stack east a bit from Cuzco.
The save :lol:
 
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