Painful Leap to Monarch

Hello all --

I made the leap to Monarch level, but can't get anywhere very fast.

The same scenario keeps happening. By the time I have built my 2nd city, the AIs are already building Hanging Gardens & that sort of thing, WAY ahead of me. I get 10-20 cities built, have 5 or so settler factories going, and start building military fast. I'll have upwards of 5-8 units on the border towns, and suddenly all the AIs declare war on me at the same time, regardless of their mood towards me. Then they nail me stacks of 20 swordsmen at a time, and the best I've got are spearmen and horsemen, etc.

What I can't figure out is how on earth I'm supposed to catch up with the AI at all on science so that I can keep up militarily & keep from getting shellacked so early on in the game.

Do I need to have 5-10 units on every single city so that the AI will think I have a bigger military? Or is it smart enough to say, "Hmmm, I have infantry and that poor SOB doesn't even have musketmen yet. Let's go!"

I even tried an ICS city placement for fun, and could quickly replace units, but a poor Impi faced with an Immortal has no chance. I went from barely able to beat the lowest level to beating Regent in just one game, by reading a bit further and finding some basic mistakes I was making early on. Now the jump to Monarch is HARD!

Going back to read more ....


W

Wingenit said:

and suddenly all the AIs declare war on me at the same time

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why do I have a hard time believing this?

But if what they are really doing is allying against you over a period of 20 turns or so then I would say your problem is a diplomacy one, not an expansion problem.

How come you aren't making alliances?

Wingenit said:

By the time I have built my 2nd city, the AIs are already building Hanging Gardens & that sort of thing, WAY ahead of me.

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What are you building in your capital for the first 50-100 turns???

For most games, your early goal should be to pump out settlers to claim land and build your empire through a normal Rapid Early eXpansion (REX).

Here's some possible early build orders to accomplish that, by no means an exhaustive list nor one that's appropriate for all situations: (list not necessarily in order)
Build 2-3 warriors for scouting and maybe use one as an MP (build some scouts if you are an expansionist civ)
Build an early extra worker to speed along improvement of land
Build an early settler or two
Consider building a granary in capital if it has enough food and shields per turn for a settler pump
Build more settlers

If capital is on coast and map is non-pangea (and even on pangea consider it) build an early curragh or two for scouts. They have more moves than a warrior.

Vast majority of time, do not build a wonder in capital in the first 50+ turns. Wonder addiction kills newer players and building an early wonder in the capital will probably ensure one's REX is pathetic. You need units.

first priority: fix your expansion problem. 2nd city by the time they make hanging gardens?
don't go with settler factories. just make settlers from each of your cities ASAP. forget granaries. this should keep you many cities ahead of the monarch AI. settler factories will probably leave you only even.

next: technology. just read the 0 percent science guide but change it to the percent you need to research in 40 turns. once you get republic and lots of roads and worked squares, then you can go 70-100%, get knights or longbows and beat everyone. basically, you talk to every single civ every single turn and see what you can trade.

other option = military. get iron working ASAP, then get a few cities, make barracks, and gain more primarily through conquest.

Was it a leap from Regent to Monarch?

If so, you shouldn't be struggling...

Yes, it does sound like you're building improvements in your capital when you need to be building settlers/workers/fighting units.

If this is not the case, please post a save for the various experts to examine. A save from when you build your second city would be great, if you have that turn saved.

Wingenit said:

The same scenario keeps happening. By the time I have built my 2nd city, the AIs are already building Hanging Gardens & that sort of thing, WAY ahead of me. I get 10-20 cities built, have 5 or so settler factories going, and start building military fast. I'll have upwards of 5-8 units on the border towns, and suddenly all the AIs declare war on me at the same time, regardless of their mood towards me. Then they nail me stacks of 20 swordsmen at a time, and the best I've got are spearmen and horsemen, etc.

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This should NOT be happening at Monarch. Although I may change things a bit to suit a particular situation or civ, I generally build 3 warriors (2 to scout and 1 for MP), then a setter. If I have a food bonus in my capital's radius, I'll build a granary for a settler factory.

The 1st settler will be (hopefully) sent to settle at a distance of CxxC on a river, build a worker first to develop that city's land, then a barracks, and then mostly military.

The capital will continue to build settlers and usually each new town builds its own worker (and a warrior first if I can build it in 5 turns, then worker in another 5).

Workers build roads to connect towns and the roads generate gold to finance research. Workers also hook up luxuries or other resources.

What I can't figure out is how on earth I'm supposed to catch up with the AI at all on science so that I can keep up militarily & keep from getting shellacked so early on in the game.

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Set your science slider to 100% unless you need a bit for happiness. Research left to right in the Ancient Age...an example would be Alpha, Writing, Code of Laws, Philosophy. You can use these more expensive techs to trade to the AI for the other cheaper techs. The AI usually researches all the techs on the left-hand side first, so they are likely to have what you need, and you can often get 2 of theirs for 1 of yours. Explore, explore, explore to meet as many neighbors for trading as you possibly can.

Another alternative style of research is "zero research", saving your gold to buy techs from the AI, but it's not my preference.

Do I need to have 5-10 units on every single city so that the AI will think I have a bigger military? Or is it smart enough to say, "Hmmm, I have infantry and that poor SOB doesn't even have musketmen yet. Let's go!"

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No, but you need to build only offensive units like warriors, archers, horsemen and swordsmen. Do NOT build spears unless playing an Always War game (which seems unlikely you're doing now.) The AI rates an offensive unit as 1.5 times more fearsome than a defensive unit, and having offensive units will make them much less likely to attack you.

I even tried an ICS city placement for fun, and could quickly replace units, but a poor Impi faced with an Immortal has no chance.

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What do you consider ICS? ICS is CxC, whereas good city placement is usually CxxC...not considered ICS, but rather just tight placement. Besides, an Impi is a defensive unit, whereas an Immortal is offensive and much stronger than an Impi. I'd recommend trying an Agricultural civ (faster growth) with a good UU (offensive 2-move units), like the Iroquois or Celts for your first attempts at Monarch.

Good luck!!!

Could you post a save so we could see your situation? And 20 swordsmen? The AI rarely has that many swordsmen in the ancient times.

Well, I'll answer several of these at once.

I don't think expansion is my problem. I've started 3 Monarch games so far, putting them aside when it became clear that the AI was about to wipe me out, and trying a new one with different tactics.

In all three games I have nearly (or more than) twice as many cities as any of the AI countries. In one game I have 32 cities and the next largest country has 16.

I'm not building ANY wonders. My score on 2 of the 3 games is middle-of-the-road, but my culture points are extremely low, just a tiny sliver compared to the AI. I'm not letting any of the towns build even temples or anything until all the cities have 2-5 units in them.

In one game I know I was a big threat (bigger than the other two countries on my continent combined) but was way behind in tech and had no iron, so they knew they could band together & beat me up. On that one I annoyed Persia into declaring war because they were sending troops willy-nilly all over my territory -- it looked like they were just looking at my cities or something.

The game that got me confused was I was playing Zulu and had 22 cities compared to the other civ's 8. But as soon as they got swordsman they quit building, made a huge army, and came to kill me. Okay, I did that to the Americans playing Regent level & it worked GREAT, so I guess I can see why they would. But we had contacted several times, made several trades, and his attitude was polite. And usually you can tell the AI is preparing war because their borders are near, and you'll see all the workers suddenly disappear and a troop buildup occur. On this one he went from Polite to declaring war while our countries were still 10-12 moves apart, and I had time to nearly double my military by the time he showed up (I waited because I was only capable of building good defenders, not good attackers). But he showed up Immortals and my best units were Impi.

What I don't understand is how the AI is getting such a jump on me with science & military. At one point I got notice that the AI was building Leonardo's Workshop and I was still trying to get horseback riding (WAY behind). And I was funding science much faster on that game than usual, too. The one thing I am doing, from reading one of the articles, is starting out heavy on science & getting pottery (for granaries), then making 1-2 settler factories after I get 3-5 cities. At that point the bigger cities just make settlers and the smaller ones just make military, basically, until all available land is gone. I think the AI is going for iron working 1st thing, and finding iron, then trying to wipe me out early. The AI is hardly bothering to build at all (except for India, apparently).

In all three games I haven't had ANY iron within my borders, which has been a huge problem. The AI is coming at me with swordsmen and I just have spearmen, all three times.

Here is a question, though. Under what circumstances are you given the OPTION of making alliances? I hardly ever get this option until later in the game.

Wingenit said:

Here is a question, though. Under what circumstances are you given the OPTION of making alliances? I hardly ever get this option until later in the game.

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You can make alliances with any civ that you have an embassy with. You're probably not establishing embassies yourself but rather waiting for the AI to establish with you, hence not being able to make MA's until later in the game.

A few other quick comments:
You are using a ton of units to garrison your cities (2-5?). It's a waste to do that for cities in your core, away from your borders, unless you use a couple for Military Police and have a government that allows MPs.

Also, it's usually way better to build offensive units, even if it's just horseman and archers, than spears to garrison your borders. The idea is to attack the incoming swordsman rather than letting the swords attack you. Also, the AI regards you as more powerful if you have offensive forces, and thus they will be less likely to attack you.

Above all, the old axiom still stands: "the best defense is a good offense".

The other thing is, it sounds like you are not doing much on the trading scene. One critical part of advancing difficulty levels is to be pro-active in trading with the AI, especially in the area of good tech trading. You should constantly be aware of how you stand technology-wise compared to the other civs.

There are lots of articles, utilities, and other tips floating around this site to help with trading. I'll leave it to other posters to point you in the right direction on that...

Wingenit said:

In all three games I haven't had ANY iron within my borders, which has been a huge problem. The AI is coming at me with swordsmen and I just have spearmen, all three times.

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I'll repeat what I posted above...do NOT build spearmen, but offensive units...archers, horsemen, swords.

If you don't have iron, build a "poor man's army" and go take it from a civ that has it. For info on how to build and use a poor man's army, read "Warmongering 101" by scoutsout in the War Academy. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/warmongering101.php . It has easy-to-read info on everything about basic warmongering, and I re-read it every couple of months...just to remind myself, because I'm a builder at heart. Even in a "builder's game", you need to take a certain amount of territory to ensure having resources/luxes and to prevent the AI from taking you.

Wingenit said:

I don't think expansion is my problem. . . .

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At Monarch level, if the AI is getting to the Hanging Gardens by the time you're building your second city, expansion most certainly is (at least part of) the problem. I'm not saying that to be snide, but the AI shouldn't be able to get to Monarchy (the prereq for the HG) by the time you put down a second town. There's something fundamentally wrong with that picture.

Wingenit said:

In all three games I have nearly (or more than) twice as many cities as any of the AI countries. In one game I have 32 cities and the next largest country has 16.

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What were those 32 cities building? Also, was your terrain improved? If the land around your 32 cities was improved & roaded, you should have been able to squash a civ half your size.

Wingenit said:

I'm not building ANY wonders. My score on 2 of the 3 games is middle-of-the-road, but my culture points are extremely low, just a tiny sliver compared to the AI. I'm not letting any of the towns build even temples or anything until all the cities have 2-5 units in them.

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OK, well, that tells me that you're not getting hooked by AA wonders. That's good. Unless you're going for a culture win, don't worry too much about low culture at Monarch level, though. That might get problematic at higher levels (or so I hear . . . ), but at Monarch you don't get many flips and you can just retake anything that does flip.

However, the statement that you're "not letting any of the towns build even temples or anything until all the cities have 2-5 units in them" makes me wonder if you're building offensive or defensive units. As others have pointed out, the best defense is a good offense. The AI values offensive units and defensive units differently and a stack of horsemen can defend a relatively large area simply by galloping over and whacking anything that comes into your territory.

Wingenit said:

In one game I know I was a big threat (bigger than the other two countries on my continent combined) but was way behind in tech and had no iron, so they knew they could band together & beat me up. . . .

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Three points:
1) You're giving the AI way too much credit for what it knows. It doesn't plan ahead very well. If you're afraid of being dogpiles, why not start the dogpile? Declare war on someone and buy some friends to go beat them up.
2) If your empire was so large, how did you fall behind in tech? Where's all your commerce going?
3) Did you have horses? Mathematics? Warrior Code? If so, go take someone else's iron. At the very least, you can go unhook the AI's iron.

Wingenit said:

The game that got me confused was I was playing Zulu and had 22 cities compared to the other civ's 8. But as soon as they got swordsman they quit building, made a huge army, and came to kill me. Okay, I did that to the Americans playing Regent level & it worked GREAT, so I guess I can see why they would. But we had contacted several times, made several trades, and his attitude was polite.

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Sounds like the AI viewed you as militarily weak. Did you happen to see what your military advisor said about the AI?

Wingenit said:

In all three games I haven't had ANY iron within my borders, which has been a huge problem. The AI is coming at me with swordsmen and I just have spearmen, all three times.

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As gmaharriet pointed out: Build offense, not defense. A sword is a 3.2.1 unit. It's stronger on offense than on defense. Build some archers and horses and attack them.

I highly recommend posting a save of one of your games so that some of the players around here can get a more detailed look at the game itself.

gmaharriet --

Thank you for posting such a helpful and friendly response! I didn't see it until after posting first response above. The info about warriors/archers/etc. versus spears is especially helpful. I had been doing the opposite because spears can be upgraded (though it is really expensive upgrade them all later!)

I also prefer CxxC for placement. I started attempt #4 and it is going a bit better. When the historians write their histories, they are calling me the "Glorious Persians", so in 1st place for now. Also, I'm only sharing a continent with the Zulus, and we are separated by a tiny landbridge that is only one space wide. So I'm sticking a few warriors there to block them (I have much better stuff down here, tons of iron this time!) until I get built up to there.

Usually I'm too impatient to build warriors just for exploration and wait until I can trade for maps, but it was very helpful & I'll do that from now on. Thanks again!

Let me offer three suggestions on how to improve your game.

1. As has already been mentioned, upload a save game to this thread so that some of us can look at what has been done and offer ways to improve upon what is in place.
2. In the Stories and Tales portion of the forum, start a thread where you play through a game and upload saves for others to look at. There are several examples still current where others have done this. Some are more elaborate and detailed than others. Find a method that bests suits you and use it.
3. Join a Monarch or Emperor level SG. In an SG you will only be playing 10 turns at a time and there will be lots of discussion on strategy and gameplay. Your input will be important, since you will learn by doing and asking.

These are not the only ways to improve your gameplay, but they will help you improve more quickly than starting another game where you expect to become cannon fodder. And the SGs are more fun, too.

Wingenit said:

Usually I'm too impatient to build warriors just for exploration and wait until I can trade for maps, but it was very helpful & I'll do that from now on. Thanks again!

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Getting a couple of warriors & boats out to explore will likely change the game pretty dramatically. Once you've found the other civs, you can begin trading. Try to get monopoly techs, then trade them around. By doing so, you let the AI research many of the techs for you, and may be able to set yourself up as the tech broker.

As far as CommandoBob's comment about an Emperor level SG, you might look for a Training Day Game as well. A TDG is a specific form of SG where the focus is on learning to play more than on winning. To my knowledge, there are 2 going on in Stories & Tales right now. I know that Gma02 - "First Come, First Severed" has a full roster, but you'd be more than welcome to come lurk. The other, SGFN-02: Spain to the Stars is also going on, but I don't know if they have any open slots.

Good luck & keep us posted.

It sounds that perhaps you aren't building enough workers - you say you have core sities building settlers and others building military - I normally have a couple of cities building settlers and several build barracks and military, and the rest usually end up building workers.

Workers mean more shields and more roads, which means easier to build more military and easier to get more research.

It's possible if I can round up another trainer, I think I could handle another SG, though the trainer would need to mostly run it. I think an open mind would help those who want to get better, and SG's are great for that. Lurking is oddly fascinating , I am picking up some good stuff there in the SG forum. I think patience is my weakness, a good chess player never hurries, and this game has some similarities to chess. I suck at chess too Advice to Wingenit: Listen to these folks, they are very good players. I went from a mediocre Warlord level to a decent Monarch level in about 3 months, and am now flirting with Emperor level. All from stuff on this site, and the players who post here.

Thanks for all the help! I won, with my highest score so far. (Hopefully this image works, first time to attach something ....)

Egypt decided to attack me, and had made a MPP with Greece, but I managed to flip Greece to my side & when I *finally* managed to take over 3/4 continents all to myself, suddenly I had a domination victory! First time for that, too. I was surprised to win with having barely managed Steam Power (was even with the AI on science, finally!).

Thanks so much!



Wingenit

Wingenit said:

I won, with my highest score so far.

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Congratulations!!! Sounds like you're getting the hang of it.

As suggested by Aabraxan and CommandoBob, I'd strongly recommend your getting into a Succession Game. You'd be playing as part of a team with lots of discussion and suggestions by other team members. It's the fastest way I know of to improve your game skills.

Wingenit said:

. . . . I won, with my highest score so far. (Hopefully this image works, first time to attach something ....) . . . .

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Congratulations! (on both the win and attaching the image)