Team Merlot (Poll & Proof of Concept)

Will this work, and are you interested?

  • Monarchy could work, but I am not playing in the game.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
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ash88

Hail to the King Baby -DN
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
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352
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Castle Merlot
UPDATE: Since the proof of concept was wildly successful I have created the Official Team MERLOT thread HERE. It includes more details derived from the discussion in this thread, funky graphics, and more Kingly goodness. I suggest that you go there instead of here, but I'm not the King, so you can do whatever you want.

After reviewing the current "democracy"/Poll-Based teams for the upcoming game an idea struck me. (Queue Monty Python's Theme / Stars and Stripes Forever) ... And now for something completely different...

Team Merlot

Mission Statement
We all know democracy doesn't work online. Everyone becomes a selfish grade-schoolers on the internet. So let’s try something different - let's re-embrace Monarchy. (I want to farm some wine anyways). Crushing some serfs under your oppressive heel sound appealing to you? Of course it does. You play Civ4.

What will this team be like?
You are part of an elite ruling family - so are the rest of us on the team. Every 15 or so turns (we can decide at the outset) we will run a poll to see who will take over as our Royal Sovereign. As a family member we can then respectfully advise, discuss, and suggest all things to our liege who ultimately makes all good decisions on our behalf.

His Majesty can play the turns or appoint someone to play the turns on his behalf. He can choose to grant titles of Governor and allow individuals to have more dominion over certain cities - even renaming them in their honour. He can choose diplomats. Etc. Etc. When a new King takes the throne he can inherit his predecessors structure or wipe the slate clean (and inevitably tick off a lot of people!)

Election of a Monarch?
The check-and-balance of the Monarch was that they often needed the support of their wider royal family to attain a throne. Although there was nothing as formal as a vote we will use the polling system on the forum. This way the people who are brightest, most diplomatic, and (more realistically) most popular will be put on the target. Remember, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

So is this a democracy?
Not at all. Instead of micro-voting on every single annoying issue that crops up in the game we vote on someone’s vision, direction, and past indiscretions. If they tick enough people off by not following advice and going it alone they get the boot (or the guillotine?). If they carefully balance all ideas and build consent on the forums for good ideas - well - what a successful game we will have! And that person deserves a long and prosperous rule as an absolute Monarch!

Role-playing?
I'm not a huge role-playing-on-a-forum fan, but I admit that Team-Merlot is a good role-playing opportunity. So the only "Role-playing" that is required is this: in order for our little Monarchy to work we all have to surrender our hard-won freedom of self expression for the purposes of this game. I know, it's a hard pill to swallow.

The current King has absolute power. If he calls a discussion closed it is closed. He is the moderator, the Administrator, and essentially all things to all people. The only thing he cannot change is the 15-odd turn vote (everyone dies). In the mean time whatever he asks we do.

And by "whatever he asks" I really do mean it. He can single you out, just you, and say that you are no longer permitted to speak on the forums. Kind of rubs our Democratic minds the wrong way doesn't it? During his reign he has absolute power. Suck it up and learn what to do about it.

What if I hate the King?
You do have some options. As a member of the Royal Family you need to find a replacement and then privately (through private messages) build support for that member. When the post comes up in 15 turns that says, "Who will have their name on the ballet" make certain that the person puts there name forward and that they have enough people committed to vote for them to win.

Overthrowing a King should come as a complete surprise to the King. After all, there is no forum to discuss things you are unhappy about. There is no place to give "constructive criticism" (whether it is constructive or not). No, the incite-full, passive aggressive posts thinly veiled behind a coating of "just trying to help" strategy will not work in a Monarchy. Well, if the King has any sense it won't.

King's Limitations
There may be a couple more to discuss, but this will be a very short list. The spirit of the team is that the King has absolute control within the mechanics of the game and within the posting rules of the forum. He can't delay a 15-odd turn vote. He can't eject people from the team. He may only be King for 15 turns after all. The worst he can do to someone is demand they stop posting in public areas. At which time they can still send private messages and build support for other Kingly candidates.

A king that does this too often and to posters who are popular is not going to remain king for very long.

Our Mission
Our mission is to have a lot of grape-stained fun. We want to discuss Civ 4 stuff. We want to do it inside of a governmental system that works better on the internet. We don't want to have to debate about whether to settle the NE square or the NW square for 2 days. We want to place someone in power who has excellent vision and listens to us, and boot them when they stop. We want to farm some wine. But most of all...


Long live the King!
 
FWIW I think this is a really, really good idea. :goodjob:

I hope this team comes into being, and I wish you much success in getting a team formed. I am already on a team, but I think that what you propose is what some teams end up being in the end... just without the mandatory 15-turn vote.:( Which would make things alot better IMO. (I love voting on things:D)

It sounds fun and I bet there are many who would like to join such a team! Good Luck:)

:mischief: I can not resist pointing out... at the risk of sounding "inflammatory" that someone (I have no idea whatsoever who), will probably say something like... "Hmmm this idea is... interesting or intriguing or fascinating or some other adjective (that neither supports nor condemns the idea)... and then (very politely) follow with reasons they don't like the idea.

Just call it a hunch:p If that happens, don't be discouraged! We need another team and this idea is as good as any... Quite good if I do say so myself:)
 
So basically, it'd be playing the game like it were a succession game?

Not my schtick, but good luck with it anyway.

It could be - assuming that the King is overthrown. That's a big assumption. In fact, I don't see that being the norm... but who knows. It's an interesting thought.

I think, much like in real life, team Merlot will be most successful if the Monarch has long periods of rule. And a long period of rule would indicate that the royal family supports the King - and is in Harmony with the ideas and directions of the King.

Short periods of rule would indicate that everyone has a very different idea about how to proceed and there is a lot of dissent.

I would think that if a new candidate has enough influence to overthrow a King he probably has enough influence to last through a few elections...

interesting .... interesting...
 
This sounds like a great idea. :thumbsup:

If it gets off the ground - count me in! Unfortunately, I have very limited time for participation, so I'll mostly be a lurker I'm afraid. So you'll certainly need quite a few more people than just me to have a functioning team.

Long live the King! :king:
 
Sounds like an idear that will work. Sounds like a modern democraty really. Every 15 turns elections, I guess the votable members will publish a party program with promisses (like lower tax and stuff).

Maybe you need a rule that a monarch cannot be votable if he was the last two terms on power.
 
Maybe you need a rule that a monarch cannot be votable if he was the last two terms on power.

Why? If a Monarch survives 20 succession votes in power (300 turns) that would seem to indicate that they are a good Monarch! Building consent among their family, taking the advice of smart people, while shifting the thinking of people who are giving bad advice... being a good diplomat and a strong leader... why would you want to kick someone like that out after 30 turns?

Afterall, just because you are the absolute Monarch of Team Merlot doesn't mean you can do whatever you want without consequence. If our royal highness marched our Chariots into a largely unpopular war, and then 5 turns later we, the royal family, had the opportunity to over throw him, don't you think we would?

The fact is that a smart Monarch will realize that his power rests on the ruling class - us. Now, if there are occasional indiscretions but his overall policies are good then we, the royals, aren't going to do anything. But if we find our lands and people suffering under his tyranny they aren't going to suffer for long.

Of course, I fully support the King and would never raise a hand against him.

... Long live the King.
 
Sounds like an idear that will work. Sounds like a modern democraty really. Every 15 turns elections, I guess the votable members will publish a party program with promisses (like lower tax and stuff)..

Actually no - because if you announce that you are "running for King" then the current king will most likely get a little pissed.

Not only that, but pragmatically we don't want the meta-game of Team Merlot to turn into some back-stabbing-every-15-turns-crap-politics-thing.

If you want to overthrow a King you better build support for yourself, but as I said in the initial post, you better do it quietly. In private messages.

Voicing your discontent for the current King and his policies, and how you could do better in a public forum is not a good idea in a Monarchy.

And again, pragmatically, in intenet forums people tend to get all worked up and buzzing about rabble rabble when it comes to the smallest of issues. With these things put in place we can be sure that bad Kings will be overthrown, but good kings are not going to have to worry about forum trolls eating away at their time and patience.

Long live the King.
 
The problem with that idea is that there is absolutly nothing the apparent 'king' can do to stop the person from voicing their discontent in forums. Whilst to a lesser extent, there is not much a king can do to stop a player logging in to the game and taking a look around anyway short of changing the password and even this can be mitigated if the host kicks the team to AI.

Coupled with this, what do you do if the turnplayer goes missing for a few days? or even vanishes off the face of the earth? This would necessitate keeping the password in view in the team forums which goes back to my earlier point.

If you can think of a way to do it then it sounds interesting, not really my thing but best of luck. I would say you do need to find another few members quickly if possible otherwise another team may sign up ahead of you.
 
The problem with that idea is that there is absolutly nothing the apparent 'king' can do to stop the person from voicing their discontent in forums. Whilst to a lesser extent, there is not much a king can do to stop a player logging in to the game and taking a look around anyway short of changing the password and even this can be mitigated if the host kicks the team to AI.

I agree, and I have been thinking about this. There is some "overhead" in managing the "metagame" of Team Merlot. The King can be the absolute power in Civ4 both in game and on the forums, but who makes sure the succession votes happen? That isn't in the Kings interests. Who makes the call if the King disappears?

Dealing with all of this we would need an out-of-game Administrator. Someone with no ingame power, and who agrees not to go for King during the game, but who would be a dispassionate person detached from the cool royal politics. Let's face it, most of us here cling tightly to and understand the ideals of democracy in our day to day life. The Administrator would help keep us thinking in what is a very foreign way for us - as a royal in a monarchy.

That was my idea about that. The metagame can't be managed by the King - he has his own agenda. Someone detached needs to be involved in that. I can see myself throwing my name in the hat to be elected as the "administrator."

I would say you do need to find another few members quickly if possible otherwise another team may sign up ahead of you.

Very true. The whole Monarchy and Team Merlot idea seems so interesting... I hope it works out in time. Just need a few solid players.
 
Perhaps scout in either the Demogame forums themselves or try the NES sub forums, seems a bit of both.
 
First things first, I'm new to the whole demogame stuff, but if that's not a problem I would like to join this team if it will launch.

As can be guessed from my join date and message count, the demogame advertisement at the front page is what finally got me to join the forums. I've been pondering on joining a demogame since CIV III, but somehow I've never quite gotten around actually doing it. I found the suggestion of a monarchy team intriguing enough to finally join the forums and apply to a team.

Now I have to admit that I can see so many ways how this can fail spectacularly. However I can see also other ways why this can actually work pretty well and so I think this should absolutely be tested out to see whether this will end in glory or grave. Regardless this should end up being fun.

If I'm allowed into the royal family, I believe I can commit to being quite active. Next few weeks in my life will be quite hectic, but after that things should let up a bit so later on I'd be able to participate more than in early stages.

Long Live the King (or Queen for that matter)!
 
Not only that, but pragmatically we don't want the meta-game of Team Merlot to turn into some back-stabbing-every-15-turns-crap-politics-thing.

Long live the King.

Actually, I would completely love to see this. But I'm already on another team...

(And realistically I'm worried that this team would collapse/players would quit. If they made the whole "overthrowing the King" thing work though I think I would be fine with it, even if it had adverse consequences for other teams, but I wouldn't have to be on the team...)
 
I think this is a great idea, and I hope you find enough members to get it off the ground.

The problem with that idea is that there is absolutly nothing the apparent 'king' can do to stop the person from voicing their discontent in forums. Whilst to a lesser extent, there is not much a king can do to stop a player logging in to the game and taking a look around anyway short of changing the password and even this can be mitigated if the host kicks the team to AI.
I actually don't think there should be much of a problem with this, as long as all members read the first post before joining the team and understand what they're getting into. My gut feeling is that people who are willing to join a team like this will want the concept to succeed, and thus will not want to hurt the atmosphere by going "out of character".

Coupled with this, what do you do if the turnplayer goes missing for a few days? or even vanishes off the face of the earth? This would necessitate keeping the password in view in the team forums which goes back to my earlier point.
I imagine that just like any other team there could be backup turnplayers. Also there shouldn't be a problem with having the password public, since as I said above, I believe the people inclined to join such a team would not want to sabotage the role-playing atmosphere by meddling with the game.
 
I think this is a great idea, and I hope you find enough members to get it off the ground.


I actually don't think there should be much of a problem with this, as long as all members read the first post before joining the team and understand what they're getting into. My gut feeling is that people who are willing to join a team like this will want the concept to succeed, and thus will not want to hurt the atmosphere by going "out of character".
Yeah i do understand that but you may be looking at this from a slightly mature perspective, i know most adults would want it to succeed but there is nothing to say everyone on the team would be. I appreciate this may be too judgemental and i would like this team to succeed.

I imagine that just like any other team there could be backup turnplayers. Also there shouldn't be a problem with having the password public, since as I said above, I believe the people inclined to join such a team would not want to sabotage the role-playing atmosphere by meddling with the game.

Yeah but what i was meaning was how this would tie in to the whole concept on the monarchy thing?
 
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