Why didnt firaxis ever improve AGG / PRO?

Seraiel said:

Tbh, actually all pre-Gunpowder units are too weak and war pre-Gunpowder is not very funny. There still are possibilities to make it work though, like going for an all-in HA or Elepult rush, and even Maces + Xbows can cause damage. Trebutchets against Castles is horrible and it's usually way easier to fast-tech to Cannons, still, even Trebutchets can work if one's empire is strong enough to produce enough of them, preferably 10+ with 5+ XP to spec Accuracy.

Players going to war earlier and earlier is a sign that the playerbase got much better in term of skill. Draft-Rifles are really the easiest choice to win, followed by Cannons, Cuirrs and Cavs.

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I mentioned the engineering bulb specifically because a dedicated rush to that (avoid teching fishing to bulb that path) allows for 1000-500 BC type engineering timings. I think it was HR Oscar that won deity/normal/standard domination using that, around 1000 AD. By the time the AI got castles he had already killed/vassaled a few and had the production base to crank CR III treb + knights at which point nothing the AI gets pre-rifles stops you. Finishing outright by 1000 AD cuts most AI from getting to rifling even on deity and even if a few get it you're talking 3x anybody else's land by then.

That's a niche strategy though, and nations that start with fishing (or need/want to use seafood early) can't use it. Draft rifles are by far the easiest to execute IMO, especially transitioning into rifle/cannon from there.

An idea for how to improve PRO: non-culture producing buildings are 50% less likely to be destroyed on conquest. Not really any synergy with the rest of the trait, though neither do the other traits necessarily have synergy between different features. But it would make sense, a protective leader would be less likely to tell his soldiers to burn everything down. Chances of keeping normal buildings would go up from 66% to 83%, and you'd have 50% chance to keep barracks and walls. Could make PRO leaders more attractive for aggressive warfare.

On a totally unrelated off-topic note, I've never understood why temples, monasteries and cathedrals of you own state religion would be destroyed when you capture a city...

TheMeInTeam said:

I mentioned the engineering bulb specifically because a dedicated rush to that (avoid teching fishing to bulb that path) allows for 1000-500 BC type engineering timings. I think it was HR Oscar that won deity/normal/standard domination using that, around 1000 AD. By the time the AI got castles he had already killed/vassaled a few and had the production base to crank CR III treb + knights at which point nothing the AI gets pre-rifles stops you. Finishing outright by 1000 AD cuts most AI from getting to rifling even on deity and even if a few get it you're talking 3x anybody else's land by then.

That's a niche strategy though, and nations that start with fishing (or need/want to use seafood early) can't use it. Draft rifles are by far the easiest to execute IMO, especially transitioning into rifle/cannon from there.

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If using knights & trebs in that way, Byzantine could be super strong.

bhavv said:

If using knights & trebs in that way, Byzantine could be super strong.

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Cataphract doesn't have the flanking or "ignores castle" capability of cuirassers so they're only a marginal upgrade over Joe random nation starting without fishing if bulbing engineering (especially because you are cutting tech rate aside from bulb techs meaning guilds is not an instant next-get). Spain would be better if they didn't have fishing. Ottomans are just as good as Byzantine if not better for this strat. For Byz you might even want to do some kind of direct guilds bulb/upgrade/whip cataphract strat but it's hard to make it work much faster than just using cuirs.

I know it's not a major improvement, but why not let agg/pro leaders use a Great General to start a golden age?

No, but if you're gonna be using knights, then cataphracts are better.

There is nothing to improve with these traits, really. They just find their balance with other traits at slower speeds & higher levels of difficulty. Many aspects of the game do, anyways.

-Slower speeds make units more enticing to use, as movement is "faster" against tech rates, if you know what I mean. Having pretty better units for either attack or defence is crucial at difficulties were they don`t abund. -Marathon even gets units comparatively cheaper as well-

-The economic benefits are also there of course: cheaper barracks and drydock is nice (once again, when having standing armies actually matter and one can't rely in teching for rifles or whatever once the enemy is at the border). Castles give one trade route and that +%25 bonnus for espionage output, so praised at the higher levels (oh, plus 1 culture!!..hehe)



On a side note, somebody mentioned having AGG gain +50% gold from looting, make it a +25% and AGG gets up being the superlative unstoppable trait in slow speeds, as gold is the only thing in so many cases deterring global domination early on. That said, a +25% gold in looting situations could be interesting, maybe aquired in a promotion after combat II, thus having the leader make that call.

hello, this is my first time on this forum, i started to play the nobles club games from 1 to currently nc65, omw to improve my noble skills and advance to next;
so, agg/pro, one thing i see on agg/pro leaders is that some times their uu dont sinergy well, and then its why i find weak, so a way to improve agg its to give some bonus to cavalry and even ha, so that way mongols sinergy well on ub-uu-traits which i find weak.
hammurabi its another agg leader i dont find sinergy uu-agg (great unit btw)
one thing i like from civ5 its the French Foreign Legion bonus, maybe agg can benefit from being on enemy territory, and protective on ally or home, nothing crazy like civ5 25% bonus damage, no, something more like 5-10%;
or give plus cross bonuses from prot/agg like agg archers combat I, prot melee units medic 1;
agg plundering bonus gold, pro plus land sight or some spy bonuses even.
sorry my bad English, but i want to give my opinion, even on a 10 years old game
(pls firaxis, civ 4 remastered)
greetings to all

diegobueno said:

(pls firaxis, civ 4 remastered)

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Now, that is a fantastic idea actually!

(as a note, Keshiks are awesome and Bowman suck..although I agree that there's not much synergy with agg-uu with both. Ofc, agg bonus on stable (Ger) would have been nice to speed them up. Bowman..though..ugh..just terrible..never build them)

lymond said:

Now, that is a fantastic idea actually!

(as a note, Keshiks are awesome and Bowman suck..although I agree that there's not much synergy with agg-uu with both. Ofc, agg bonus on stable (Ger) would have been nice to speed them up. Bowman..though..ugh..just terrible..never build them)

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i find bowman really strong, on nc52 (on noble) i make an bowman rush and take pacal, alex, or was pericles... and quin, (quin take me long time and some swords catapults... )

greetings

Keshiks with Combat 1 from Agg would be quite something.

They didn't "fix" them because agg/pro aren't broken. Considering how lopsided the balance is between civs' UUs it seems facetious to even regard this as an issue.

Right now Qin is my favourite Leader for deity and tuffer games. It was De Gaulle a short while ago... both can have some really nicely promoted units.

While De Guaulle gets you that extra needed happiness early, it takes quite a while before the promotion benefits kick in... but a big part of surviving those tuff games is to survive the early DoWs with the big stacks that come your way before you barely have time to get a barracks up. Protective has saved my ass so many times in that spot. Often I am building archers BEFORE barracks cause I don't even have that many turns to spare for the damn barracks when the trumpet blows shortly after your first worker gets himself out the door.

Macksideshow said:

Personally, I don't find AGG/PRO to be that bad. Access to second line promos with a barracks meaning units never have to fight without them is a benefit.

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Are we talking about the distinct combo, or AGG and PRO in general? Either way a the bear says these are MP trailts. AGG is definitely stronger than PRO, but PRO has uses too. In MP we do tend to play random leader, so it makes it interesting. Only time to pick the actual AGG/PRO would be in Medi game where you expect to build lot of Musket units (with a UU).