i am not very good

1500 BC to 775 BC

Turns 61 to 70:

1. 1500BC
   Hiawatha came asking for contact with Babylon. His request was firmly rejected and he backed down.
   An embassy is opened in Salamanca for 34 golds.
   Arbela finishes a library and begins the Pyramids.
   
2. 1475BC
   The library is pop-rushed in Antioch-by-the-sea.
   Gordium is founded by the north iron.
   The Cuman tribe gives us a warrior.
   
3. 1450BC
   Antioch-by-the-Sea begins the Colossus.
   
4. 1425BC
   Persepolis finishes a settler, starts another.
   The settler is sent NE to claim the furs.
   The library is pop-rushed in Pasargadae. It will now go back to worker duty.
   
5. 1400BC
   Susa completes a library and is now set on spear duty.
   
6. 1375BC ...
7. 1350BC ...
   
8. 1325BC
   Persepolis trains a settler, starts a spear.
   The settler is sent to the game by the river, NE of Persepolis.
   
9. 1300BC ...
   
10. 1275BC
    Tarsus trains a worker, starts on a library.
    Horseback riding is sold to Hammurabi for all his 27 golds.
    Code of laws is discovered, research is set on Republic at best pace.
    [/list=1]
    
    
    Turns 71 to 80:
    
    1. 1250BC
       Persepolis trains a spearman, starts on a settler.
       
    2. 1225BC
       Bactra founded by the furs in the NE and starts on a library.
       
    3. 1200BC
       Our people want a Forbidden Palace, maybe we should...
       An embassy is taken with the Zulu for 36 golds.
       
    4. 1175BC
       Sidon is founded and starts on a library.
       
    5. 1150BC
       Persepolis trains a settler, starts a spear.
       
    6. 1125BC ...
    7. 1100BC ...
       
    8. 1075BC
       Persepolis trains a spear, starts a settler.
       
    9. 1050BC
       Gordium finishes a library and starts on the Forbidden Palace.
       
    10. 1025BC
        An embassy is taken with the Aztec for 42 golds and ROP taken with everyone.
        [/list=1]
        
        
        Turns 81 to 90:
        
        1. 1000BC
           Tyre is founded and starts on a library.
           
        2. 975BC
           Persepolis trains a settler, starts on a spear.
           The settler is sent to the wheat by the NW river.
           
        3. 950BC ...
        4. 925BC ...
           
        5. 900BC
           Persepolis trains a spear, starts a settler.
           
        6. 875BC
           We discover the Republic and revolt immediately. The situation will be touch and go for the next 4 turns. Currency is ordered.
           
        7. 850BC ...
        8. 825BC ...
           
        9. 800BC
           Sardis is founded next to the wheat near the NW river.
           
        10. 775BC
            We are now a republic!
            [/list=1]
            
            
            The Persian empire at the end of 1525BC.
            
            
            
            Click on the mini map to see a full view.
            
            Here are the save games:
            1275 BC
            1025 BC
            775 BC

I seem to have taken the 'middle' road between building lots of cities and building some improvements, and I don't know how this will work out. The Pyramids should in 14 turns, and the FP in Susa in 24 or less. As the 'outer ring' cities become more productive, I'll have more cities soon overall, and granaries in all of them should add to growth.

Cracker- Libraries already? I never even thought of building them this early on such a large map, especially at warlord level.

______________________________________________

1500 BC Nothing much happens; worker actions & movement.

1475 BC Pasagardae builds spear; starts another.

1450 BC Persepolis builds settler; starts temple.

1425 BC Arbela builds settler; starts another.

1400 BC Literature research; research on Mathematics started.

1375 BC

1350 BC Bactra founded.

1325 BC Forbidden Palace prompt appears. Susa switches to Temple, microes for production; it will build a FP next. Tarsus builds a worker and starts another.

1300 BC Pasagardae builds spear; starts another.

1275 BC Embassies in Babylon, Salamanca, and Zimbabwe, which is starting The Oracle.

1250 BC Sidon founded; starts spear.

1225 BC Persepolis finishes Temple; starts Pyramids. Arbela builds settler; starts spear.

1200 BC Antioch builds worker; starts another.

1175 BC Mathematics researched; research started on Currency. Gordium builds worker; starts Settler.

1150 BC

1125 BC Pasgardae builds spear; starts another.

1100 BC Bactra builds spear; starts settler.

1075 BC Tarsus builds worker; starts settler.

1050 BC Susa builds Temple; starts Forbidden Palace.

1025 BC Arbela builds spear; starts settler. Bactra changes production to Worker


1000 BC Iron is linked into the trade network. Sidon builds spear; starts settler.

975 BC Bactra builds worker; starts another.

950 BC Antioch builds woker; starts settler. Pasagardae builds spear; starts another.

925 BC

900 BC Embassy in Tenochtitlan; it is building the Oracle. Tyre founded; starts Worker.

875 BC Currency discovered; research started on Code of Laws. Bactra builds worker; starts spear.

850 BC Arbela builds settler; starts spear. Lux tax to 10% to quiet Persepolis, science to 70%.

825 BC

800 BC

775 BC Pasagardae builds Spear; starts another.

As of the end of this turn, Hiawatha has Map Making, but no one else does- I'll either wait for other civs to get it or research it later when I have the resources to explore again, as right now everything is targeted at early Republic/fast territory expansion.

The Persian Empire as of 775 BC:







http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/HA7_Borealis_bc1275.sav

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/HA8_Borealis_bc1025bc.sav

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/HA9_Borealis_bc775.sav

Turns 61-70
61 1500 Workers move to next tile for improving. Settlers progress to destinations. Spearman fortified in Parsargadae. Warriors explore.

62 1475 Antioch workers start mine. Moves as before.

63 1450 Arbela blt worker, start temple to get incense. Move worker to wheat for mining and road. Tarsus founded NW of mtns, clearing forest automatically. Order worker. More moving and exploring. Sci 90, MM still in 7 -1gpt.

64 1425 Persepolis blt settler, ord settler. Susa blt worker, ord granary. I wanted to let the population come up before going back to worker farm. New settler sent to forest NE of wheat. Workers mine/road, settler warriors move.

65 1400 Antioch will start irrigating river for money purposes,and worker production. not much shield potential here. more moves.

66 1375 Paying the price for not exploring where I sent the settler. wasted 1 move going to mtn to decide where to settle.

67 1350 Switch Susa to Barracks, switch Antioch from immortal to granary. Susa will be western front military supplier, Antioch worker farm. Decide settler to found on horse. more moves.

68 1325 Gordium founded on horse. more moves.

69 1300 Worker moves from parsagae territory to Tarsus for mining BGs and road. Warrior in Gordium for protection of our only horse. Establish embassy with iroquois, blding spear due in 4, 1 in garrison, have 1 horse but I can't see how from the map.

70 1275 Done MapMaking, ord Code of Law for courts and Republic. Persepolis blt settler, ord spear to let popluation recover a little and provide MP for higher pop. Parsar blt barraks, ord immortal. All warriors come to the end of their continent, will start looping back toward home. Workers complete road to Arbela.

Next: Start improving Arbela tiles to make temple sooner. Then connect Gordium for horses. Gordium is building a spear but should probably be changed to a temple since its right next to the Iroquois capital. Antiochs mine on the cow should be irrigated instead once the granary is built. 2 settlers on their way to:

1)Settle NE of 1st wheat above Tarsus: on river, 2nd wheat and 2 bgs in 2nd radius.
2)Settle SE of dyes on jungle side of river so get tehm in 1st radius and leave space for city(s) on river NW of Arbela.

Other prime spots, two areas of furs to the E. Going to need some towns on the Coast of the inlet to ensure we can get to fur area without taking a boat. Then head out to game and furs area just discovered. Once #1 is founded, all Persepolis settlers to go east. #1 city will provide settlers/workers for NW expansion. Since we're industrious, clear jungle is easier and may provide lots of grassland.

All known AI's are still pathetic. None of the AI learned anything this round.

Probably switch to Literature for librarys to get help on research. Seems to be the way to go for space ship victory.

HA1_ControlFreak_BC1275.zip

My turns from 1525bc to 775bc

My turns have been mainly building cities, and exploring.

Not much happened else. But I did trade maps, and have a nearly complete map showing the whole continent. Question: Will the AI have built it's cities in the same places, etc in everyone elses games??? Here's my map of the continent we are on, showing it in a zoomed out view. It's 1.7 megs in total though.



I think you should download it. It's quite interesting. Or just save it until you know the whole continent yourself! (Sorry about Tarsus' city box, it only comes out half.
This Sucession game is really interesting. The tips here are great too! Keep posting please!

My 3 savegames in a zip (223kb)
Download the full map of the continent (2048x1536 Res. & 1.73Mb)

James, I think AI cities will be almost in the same location for everybody, at least initially. The name might be different though. For instance, the Iroquois city near the horses is Oil Spings in my case and Catarragus (sp?) in your case. But once the AI borders start to collide, it might end up very different from one player to the other.

1525 (60): The game continues

1500 BC (61): some warrior and settler movement, see another hut and dyes to the north.

1475 bC (62): Hut give barbs , exploration continues, spear at susa start another.

1450 BC (63): spear arrives in Pasargadae, settler and growth in 3. Movements continue. Change antioch to worker.

1425 BC (64): Persepolis builds settler and starts another. Gordium builds warrior and starts worker. Antioch builds worker starts temple.

1400 BC (65): more movement.

1375 BC (66): Tarsus builds worker, starts temple. Lots o movements.

1350 BC (67): Forestry by Tarsus, susa completes spear starts another, founded bactra to the NE by 2 wheat and horsies, start warrior.

Heh maybe we should build a forbidden palace.

1325 BC (68): Some more movement.

1300 BC (69): Found Sidon, start warrior. Monty has HBR, but will not be reasonable. .

1275 BC (70): Finish COL, start Literature, due in 9 turns +1 gpt.





1250 BC (71): Contact the Babs, they don't have alphbet and are cautious. More movement.

1225 BC (72): Found Sardis to the west near furs and a whale, start warrior.

1200 BC (73): move stuff

1175 BC (74): continue moving stuff.

1150 BC (75): they just keep on going. Trade Hammi alphabet and 30 gold for HBR.

1125 BC (76): zzzzz

1100 BC (77): Found Samaria near the northern dyes.

1075 BC (78): Found Hamadan near the floodplain near the incence.

Learn Lit start philosophy.

1050 BC (79): Change Garibella to library.

1025 BC (80): some more movement. New Embassy with Babylon. and ROP with Iroquios.

1000 BC (81): on the road again.

975 BC (82): Found Ergili on the West coast, start warrior. The settler parade out of our capital continues.

950 BC (83): Learn philo start Republic.

925 BC (84): Hooked up the ivory finally. Reduce lux to 0%, research up to 90%, republic in 16 with -1 gpt.

900 BC (85): more of the same.

875 BC (86): Tarsus builds temple start library.

850 BC (87): The movement continues, susa switches gear to build a library. Decide to whip a library at Bactra.

825 BC (88): Arbela builds library starts barracks. Found Dariush Kabir.

800 BC (89): Found Ghulaman on the west coast.

775 BC (90): Republic due in 10 turns, +1 gpt, Some libraries on line soon. Few more settler are still out and about, land still remains to the north.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads2/ha1_hotrod_1275BC.zip http://civfanatics.net/uploads2/ha1_hotrod_1025BC.zip http://civfanatics.net/uploads2/ha1_hotrod_775BC.zip

(Disregard regard this post. I found the problem where I duplicated the data for Jaxom into James's column for 1025 and have fixed it in the data. All other data is correct and James's data for 775bc is correct in the graphics even though 1025 is currently wrong).

(I have uploade the revised graphs for the messages that follow and this should fix the error. It also makes the problem of James having to few workers really obvious.)

James,

Something nasty happened to you between 1025bc (turn 80) and 775bc (turn 90).

Since you did not mention it at all in your turns reports I thought I should ask this question separately from the other discussions just to see where all your workers and your warriors went to?

We are still waiting on the final two game uploads from Controlfreak, but in the interim here is the power graph comparing the other game positions up to turn 90 at 775bc:



This image uses the valuation of discovered technologies that takes the cost of the technology and increases its point value by adding the cost of all the prerequisites. This gives a much heavier weight to techs on the right hand side of the tree.

This cummulative point value scoring system was developed on game at the Emperor difficulty level and had not previously been tested on this lower Warlord difficulty level. Also none of the previous test games have had no chance at getting barbarian camps. These new inputs reveal that the 100% cumulative scoring bonus for tech research of techs that have prerequisites is too much of a scoring bonus and it tends to overwhelm the scoring balance with unit/people and improvements.

The second graph below is the exact same data as shown above with the tech cummulative scoring bonus dropped from 100% down to 30%. This change means that a tech is scored based on its research cost plus 30% of the cost of its prerequisites.



This change does not have a lot of impact on the early scoring, but now that we are proceeding to the higher level technologies, its impact will be more important.

Another change in the scoring formula is to drop the score bonus for most wonders to 100 points for any wonder. This at first may seem like a unfair change when you have a wonder that costs, for example, 400 shields but we have to look at the benefit of the wonder to get a better understanding of how it impacts the power of the civilization. A good example of this impact is the power of the Pyramids to instantly build a granary in every city while eliminating the maintenance cost of the granaries. The pyramids built in an empire of 15 cities will instantly give you 15 granaries which would have cost over 900 shields to build. The no maintenance factor will reduce gold per turn costs by 15 and let you spend that on techs or other things or just keep it in your treasury.

The scoring change does not effect who is in what position in the graph. But it does close the gap between the tech leaders and the others and it also will make it easier to compare the various builder/military/technology approaches to the game.

Look closely at the graph with the new tech scoring and you will clearly see that some of the game strategies are beginning to produce some very noticeable difference in the power positions for the civilizations

I will post the datatables that go with these power graphs as soon as I can get the data from ControlFreak download and input into the spreadsheet.

Here are three additional specialized graphs that focus on aspects of game progress that should be less dominated by technology and exploration.

Note that you cannot say that progress in these areas is not related to technology and exploration because without certain technology advances it would not be possible to build many improvements and without these improvements it would not be possible to grow or sustain higher levels of population and build more improvements, etc.

The first graph represent the number of population points in your civilization by adding up the workers/slaves (1 pop pt), settlers (2 pop pts), citizens (1 pop pt), and towns (equivalent of 1 pop pt).



(all graphs updated on Sunday 11/24/02 at 1530 MST to include ControlFreak and fix the error in James data transcription for 1025bc)

The second graph represents the population data converted to power points and adds in the power points for the units built so far in the game.



The final graph looks at the civilization infrastructure as represented by improvements, territory held, treasury, and accumulated food/shields.



Another caution we should apply in comparing these graphs, is that choices between the various game aspects are not necessarily mutually exclusive and/or directly transferrable. It is not necessarily true that you have the choice of increasing your power in the technology are by 100 points versus making the same exact 100 point increase in population, units, treasury, or infrastructure.

Round 8 and 9

Will post turnlog soon.

Here are the data tables for 1275bc and 1025bc.



note that the tech scoring formula is updated to the new 30% accumulation and that I have continued to highlight some significant change elements in the tables.

Yikes! I'm at the bottom. Seems my improvments are letting me down.

Why is everyone beating me???????????

If I am right, we should aim towards 570bc, 370bc, and 170bc after the discussion period.

The red box area says it all. You are so far behind in workers versus everyone else. This has you way behind in shields and money vs. everyone else. I think you will continue to find the people getting the most workers will most likely stay at the top of the charts.

Thanks Lee, I'll try more workers!

Well James,

I'm working hard at taking over the bottom from you. I'm plummeting in position.

Here's my turnlog for rounds 8 and 9 for what it's worth.

Play to:
1025bc (turn 80)
775bc (turn 90)


Turns 71-80
Changed susa and gordium to temple.
1250 Switch to math for block, pop hut in N by fish but get 50g instead. Switch to literature. Trade WM to everyone for WM+TM. Babs have 1 grassland city. other two in the mtns. Iroquois have lots of grass, iron, horse and incense. Aztecs have 5 gems in texcoco. City NW of fur by our horse would gain that lux plus gold and still be ok on grass. Then focus on expanding to NW. Penisula has river down its length. Lots of coastline and all the dyes. Hurry!

1225 Bactra founded, ord spear. Warriors head for fog. S warrior will attempt to cross zulu land to pop hut.

1200 Iro start oracle. Tarus blt worker, start temple. will switch to library when lit comes do. AIs start to catch up in tech. Iro, Babs need writing. Zulu need alphabet and mystism. Aztec need alphabet and horseback riding. Spear sent to Gordium.
1175 move,work
1150 est embassy with babs. Nothing exciting.
1125 work. warrior enters zululand.
1100 Shaka no likey. OK we'll leave. We keep going for hut.
1075 Shaka no likey. We get booted. Persepolis blt settler, ord settler. Parsar blt immortal, start galley. Susa blt temple ord barracks. Settler sent toward furs. Immortal sent to baccra. Warrior recalled for MP duty. Goodie hut found in north.
1050 N hut makes barbs. Lit in 1, sci 70/0 +4 gpt.
1025 Warrior survives barbs, 0hp lost and promote to elite! Lit done, Code started. Change all temples to libraries. Change susa to library. All civs now have alphabet except Axtecs. I feel generous so I give it to them. Iro have writing and need map and literature. Change Susa and all temples to librarys. 80/0+3 code in 10.
SAVE GAME

Turns 81-90
1000BC zulu,bab strt oracle. found sidon near dyes. order lib.
975 pers expand. baccra blt worker start lib. Arbela unhappy, wake war from gord to mp. lux 80/20 -4 gpt for 1 turn.
950pers blt sett, ord lib. sett send to delta SW. war fortify arbela sci 90/0,-2gpt code in 5.
925 parsar blt galley, ord immortal. Susa blt lib, spear for mp.
900 Hammarabi ask to trade maps. i hold off till our turn. wm all around.
875 Tyre fonud S of delta . ord war. for mp. Galley exploring sea, moving out and back to north. note land off tip of OUR penisula. sci 80/0 +2 code in 1.
850 Code done, phil strt. Susa blt spear ord settlr. Sardis founded with fur in 2nd ring, on coast. ord worker. sci 80/0 +2 phil in 4
825antioch blt granary, ord settler. Tarsus blt lib, ord spear.
800perse blt lib, ord settler. Antioch changed to spear. Arbela hires entertainer losing 1 corrupt sheild, 1 corrupt commerece and 1 food. Still growing. Change gordium to court. Leave arbela to build library first since sheild count low, need happiness. Sci 50/0 still 2 turns +12 gpt.
775 Parsargae blt immortal order another.
SAVE GAME

Just in case any one was holding back:

DISCUSSION IS NOW OPEN

Unless you are in the lead, you have to ask questions and solicit input, our pay the "Oreos, of continued ignorance" penalty.

Here is a screen shot that I took of the Aztec capital when I set an Embassy early in the game.



This screen shot is evidence of the settler fixation mistake that is coded into the AI logic, The AI will try to produce a settler from one of its cities even when producing the settler is impossible because the food/shield availability is not balanced to make sure that the city is at least at pop 3 when the shield bin fills to 30.

(note that the screen shot is a warlord AI example, so the AI food bin is 24 while the shields to produce a settler would be 36 compared to 20 and 30 respectively for the human player)

No telling how many turns Monty has already wasted, but if you look at the screen shot you will see the shield bin is full but the food bin still needs 6 more food units (at 2 per turn) before a settler can be released. The result is that Monty will waste at least 6 and probably at least 8 to 10 shields, just to produce each settler and this will also delay the production of each new unit and each new town by 3 to 5 turns.

This mistake is a death sentence and human players should never allow this to happen in their games because it basically just reduces your success rate down to the AI level.

A number of players have had this problem in some of their cities in the recent save games and it is like committing suicide in the game. Borealis, you had it in your 1525 or 1275 save file IIRC and James your Pasagardae had this exact problem in 1025bc. THis does not mean it was not in other games as well because I was not scanning every city to find this mistake. These two incidents just jumped out as I ran the scoring table.

Look carefully to balance your expected timing of when your towns will have enough people to produce a settler or a worker and still accomplish your early objectives. Settlers and workers need to be interspersed with other units and improvements in order to support happiness balance plus building a more productive civilization at every possible step in the game.

Here is the data table for 775bc:



You will note in the table that a box around an open square in the tech area indicates the current research choice that the player had selected for the 775bc save file.

-----

James,

Lee has already helped to answer part of your question as to why you are getting stomped, but this table makes it even more obvious.

Your civ is Persia and this gives you several major in game advantages you want to exploit. The first advantage is the faster speed industrious worker that effectively turns these guys into economic warriors to help you smash your neighbors with your productivity power.

The average number of workers in the game is 10 by 775bc and you only have 3.

This also indicates to me that you may need to look more closely at the details of how to choose the correct worker tasking to maximize the power of your civ. If you only have 3 workers so far, it tells me you do not fully recognize the importance of worker tasks as they relate to all the other issues in the game.

The article on "Improving Your Opening Play Sequences" focuses almost entirely on learning to assess your terrian power and task your workers properly in tandem with managing the production queue and population of your first few cities to maximize the power output of your civ.

-------

I am certain these same comments would apply to handyandy's game as well because his prior uplaod examples showed severe evidence of these same problems even when he was already up to playing with tanks and marines.

Lee,

I still wanna know what you think you're gonna do with all that cash in a warlord game in despotism. (I think you ought to have to buy the beers whenever you get that much coin stocked up.)

You are also the only player that has not gone for Literature quickly in the game. Care to shed any light of the thought processes here?

Control, (You vicous warmonger you)

So, what do you think you are gonna do with them there immortals now that you win the prize for first player to build immortals in the game??

I have already played the next 30. I am a republic and have resereached literature and already have some libraries. Much of my problem was my screw-up of not realizing until well into the game that the goal was fastest space race.

Much of the cash is now gone. My original plan was to mass produce warriors, mass upgrade to Immortals and go on a romp.
I did still create a few immortals

Lee,

I was just yanking your chain about the cash, and Yes, I too have played forward to about 700AD.

Here are some minimaps of the 775bc positions just for comparison.






Hopefully they will make for some interesting discussion.

One thing that is not at first obvious from the maps and the data is that Jaxom has made the transition into Republic by 775bc.