Civ4 Lovers/Civ5 Haters Level of Optimism for Civ6

Staler87 said:

I did pre-order the civ game after I watched the gameplay videos and heard the new concepts. Just as I have no idea whether or not the game will arrive buggy you have no idea either. I want to play the game when it is released because I think it will be good, and you obviously have different priorities. I don't know why there is an argument over pre-orders. If you want to pre-order the game because you have faith in it, then go ahead. If you don't want to pre-order the game because of some other reason, then don't do it. Just don't go on the internet and praise your decision as being part of a higher moral cause to fix the entire video game industry. That's just ludicrous. It's a personal decisions that will make very little difference to anyone but yourself so its pointless to debate whether others should or should not do it.

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I'm not faulting your desire to pre-order the game. That's up to you.

What I am saying is that by pre-ordering games and doing the early adopter thing with video games we are encouraging a new market trend where we are actually willing to pay full price for substandard, broken games that we can possibly not even play, while the gaming company reaps huge profits and earns interest off of our money.

Games are just not released in a finished state anymore. It's the way of the industry. It's become the norm to release broken or beta level games and then release patches. We're reinforcing this behavior by pre-ordering and early adoption and the game companies are laughing all the way to the bank. And what do they offer? Some pre-release DLC? Oh boy! DLC for a game that won't work yet. It borders on criminal behavior and we're stupid enough to put up with it.

Case in point: I ordered Paradox Interactive's Stellaris in May on a pre-order because Paradox is usually pretty good at releasing non buggy stuff in my experience. After two major patches and numerous hot-fixes, the game is still unbalanced and broken, and it's August! You can't finish the game without standing on your head and jumping through ridiculous hoops to get around the bugs. So there it sits on my hard drive. Another testimonial not to pre-order.

You wouldn't buy furniture like this. Your new couch that you have to assemble might be missing some screws that hold the arm on. And you have to sit carefully on it or it occasionally tips over. But don't worry, they're coming out with a patch to fix that in a month or two. You wouldn't put up with that with an item of furniture. Why put up with it from software? Why should you? You're being taken advantage of.

The sooner we realize it and start voting with our dollar, the better off we'll all be. I for one, am tired of being ripped off.

Pre-ordering in this day and age is tantamount to insanity, in my opinion. It was acceptable ten-fifteen years ago, at the height of the PS2/Xbox era when you could be reasonably sure that a new game would actually work out of the box. What with the advent of networks like Xbox Live, Playstation Network and Steam, however, developers have the means to rush out the product as quickly as they can and then make a halfhearted attempt to fix it if they can be bothered. Lemon Merchant is right in that pre-ordering only makes this worse.

I said I'd stop pre-ordering after Rome II: Total War was an unmitigated disaster on release, and is still a bad Total War game to this day. I made an exception a while later to pre-order Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain and, well... let's just say I'm not pre-ordering again, ever.

Unfortunately, however, I think there's very little that can be done now. There's simply too many people who will rush out and buy any new thing for full price, even though it may be unfinished, for some reason or reasons unknown. Just look at the Civ VI forum here. The gaming industry's standards are dropping but so are customers' expectations for some reason. People are now so brainwashed that if you dare to point out bugs, glitches or just plain bad game design you're labelled as a "hater" or a "troll." I never knew gaming would get so tribal.

This is something I feel strongly about so it upsets me there's virtually nothing I can do.

Regards

Offering pre-order when fully knowing they cannot deliver a working product on the promised release day has become something that governments should look into..
(once they start doing useful things..!)

It's very misleading, and should fall under customer protection laws.
I will not get involved in what players should do or not.
But asking others why they are not pre-ordering..basically reflects low standards?

Lemon Merchant said:

I'm not faulting your desire to pre-order the game. That's up to you.

What I am saying is that by pre-ordering games and doing the early adopter thing with video games we are encouraging a new market trend where we are actually willing to pay full price for substandard, broken games that we can possibly not even play, while the gaming company reaps huge profits and earns interest off of our money.

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How can you not be faulting me when all your statements indicate that you believe pre-ordering is destroying the video game industry. I'm not going to save the video game industry by not pre-ordering the game. If you don't want to pre-order the game because you're not confident it will arrive as a finished product then that's your decision. That's that. Don't pretend that that decision is somehow 'noble' or part of a giant crusade to save the video-game industry.

We have already seen people playing the game, so unless they spend the four months regressing the game then I'm pretty sure all us who pre-ordered the game will have something to play on the release day.

She's not looking at individuals who pre-oder cos they are excited (or for any other reasons).

But she criticises how this somehow became a norm, selling what is not finished..
huge difference.

There's no crusade or holier than you in her opinions, pointing out problems like that naturally involves saying that you think things are not going in normal ways.

In years past during the console age of cartridge video games, game developers had to be complete in their work. This extended to CD/DVD in consoles and PC's until about 10 years ago. With ever greater internet connectivity game developers have become sloppy. Poor beta testing leaves the paying public to do true beta testing for unfinished products which receive patches to fix what should have worked correctly to begin with. This would not be acceptable in the automatically industry, furniture industry, nor any other. It has become the norm in the gaming industry. The blame doesn't fall on the public, but rather the developers that know they can get away with it. Most game developers have become sloppy. Period.

It could be argued that the blame does fall on the public. The public keep buying the sloppy products, sending the message that it's ok to make sloppy products. The company's aim is to cater to public demand, and it seems the public's demand is rather sloppy.

Regards.

Staler87 said:

How can you not be faulting me when all your statements indicate that you believe pre-ordering is destroying the video game industry. I'm not going to save the video game industry by not pre-ordering the game. If you don't want to pre-order the game because you're not confident it will arrive as a finished product then that's your decision. That's that. Don't pretend that that decision is somehow 'noble' or part of a giant crusade to save the video-game industry.

We have already seen people playing the game, so unless they spend the four months regressing the game then I'm pretty sure all us who pre-ordered the game will have something to play on the release day.

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As Fippy rightfully pointed out, I'm not attacking you for pre-ordering, I'm attacking the industry for allowing this BS paradigm that they've invented to become the norm.

It's got nothing to do with being noble. It's got to do with people waking up and punishing video game manufacturers for failing to deliver a promised (and finished) product after taking perfectly good money for it, essentially acting in bad faith. Unfortunately, it's probably going to take a few class action suits for game developers to actually deliver what they promise.

I can accept a few bugs at release, but the game shouldn't be in beta stage when it is released. It shouldn't be necessary to have a major patch in order to play the game. I'm sorry, but that's wrong beyond belief, and the more we accept it, the stupider we all are, and I include myself in that assessment as I've pre-ordered a number of times and been burned each and every time.

I don't reward a car mechanic who rips me off with further business, why should I do it to a game developer? Now if I want a new game, I wait for a drastically reduced price on a Steam sale. It hurts their pocket book by selling it cheaply, and it's usually fully patched by the time I buy it. It's a win-win.

But but..you gotta pre-order the game or you won't get that..um..cough..free civilization.. you know, some civ with a leader who wears plastic leaves

Collector's Edition..my favorite term.
They collect more money for nothing, yep.

Just as I have no idea whether or not the game will arrive buggy you have no idea either.

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But I know which way I'll bet. However I'm not going to abuse anyone that bets the other way.

Lemon Merchant said:

As Fippy rightfully pointed out, I'm not attacking you for pre-ordering, I'm attacking the industry for allowing this BS paradigm that they've invented to become the norm.

It's got nothing to do with being noble. It's got to do with people waking up and punishing video game manufacturers for failing to deliver a promised (and finished) product after taking perfectly good money for it, essentially acting in bad faith. Unfortunately, it's probably going to take a few class action suits for game developers to actually deliver what they promise.

I can accept a few bugs at release, but the game shouldn't be in beta stage when it is released. It shouldn't be necessary to have a major patch in order to play the game. I'm sorry, but that's wrong beyond belief, and the more we accept it, the stupider we all are, and I include myself in that assessment as I've pre-ordered a number of times and been burned each and every time.

I don't reward a car mechanic who rips me off with further business, why should I do it to a game developer? Now if I want a new game, I wait for a drastically reduced price on a Steam sale. It hurts their pocket book by selling it cheaply, and it's usually fully patched by the time I buy it. It's a win-win.

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Welcome to the Instant Gratification Generation, beautiful!

They don't like it when we point it out, but it is indeed a fact. It permeates everything, not only the games industry. Look at TV shows. The History Channel was a pleasure to watch 10-20 years ago, and now we get... what? The glorification of axemen, fishermen, and idiots? (All respect to some lines of work, of course, but where is the glorification of researchlabmen, in example? "But that's like... boring, dude!!!" Exactly.).

Everything is adrenaline junk food, nothing else. Adrenaline --> Instant Gratification.

This isn't some giant crusade that is indicative of all the problems of the world. Somehow you have connected the deterioration of the history channel with my decision to pre-order civ VI helping to destroy the entire video game industry. Then you decide that pre-ordering a game that is a couple months away is indicative of how I demand instant gratification. And to top it off you decide that I'm the one who is being ridiculous by participating in the evils of instant gratification by doing something that will reward me two months later.

I do actually agree that the history channel is crap. But it is not connected to pre-ordering video games.

Staler87 said:

This isn't some giant crusade that is indicative of all the problems of the world. Somehow you have connected the deterioration of the history channel with my decision to pre-order civ VI helping to destroy the entire video game industry. Then you decide that pre-ordering a game that is a couple months away is indicative of how I demand instant gratification. And to top it off you decide that I'm the one who is being ridiculous by participating in the evils of instant gratification by doing something that will reward me two months later.

I do actually agree that the history channel is crap. But it is not connected to pre-ordering video games.

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Man, with all due respect, you seem to see your name in any/all posts that you don't like. Maybe try to be less defensive? Nobody is aiming at you, and believe it or not, you are not the center of the universe (nor am I, or Lemon, or anyone for that matter).

Wise saying in Spanish: al que le venga el sayo, que se lo ponga. Google is your friend.

Staler87 said:

This isn't some giant crusade that is indicative of all the problems of the world. Somehow you have connected the deterioration of the history channel with my decision to pre-order civ VI helping to destroy the entire video game industry. Then you decide that pre-ordering a game that is a couple months away is indicative of how I demand instant gratification. And to top it off you decide that I'm the one who is being ridiculous by participating in the evils of instant gratification by doing something that will reward me two months later.

I do actually agree that the history channel is crap. But it is not connected to pre-ordering video games.

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The previous statement was actually allegorical Staler( I did find the irony of the History Channel mixed in vastly amusing), and you appear to be missing the main point.

No one is accusing you of anything. They are simply pointing out the differences of product purchase decisions from an earlier time to what is considered the "norm" now.

Let's put it this way.
Your planning on pre-order, correct? Because it's something you want as soon as possible, yes? It doesn't matter to you what condition it will be in, how easily it will run for you, whether it will actually be worth the money you pay for it. All that matters is that you've seen some selected videos, read some orchestrated reviews and comments, and have decided that you want it.. That's your right, and by all means, go ahead and do so.
The problem is, that's exactly what the corp wants. 10 years ago, a person would actually spend a little bit of research and time before making a purchase. people wouldn't accept buggy crap, a basic beta version, or a game that constantly fails to meet the expectations of it's primary consumer base.
Now days, Corps know how to dangle the proverbial carrot in front of their consumers ( and I find the irony of that word funny as well) and know that they can literally shove a P.O.S. down their throats and laugh maniacally all the way to the bank. And a vast percentage of people will let them.
So no Staler, the people above are not directly attacking you. They are actually lamenting that hardly anyone now days can't see past what is happening in the industry, and that when it is pointed out, they are berated for trying to help.

I do wish you well with your pre-order though. I truly hope that it is everything and more for what you expected. As for myself, well, my cynicism towards the industry will have me patiently waiting for a very long time before I decide to make a purchase.

the history channel

lymond said:

the history channel

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Did you happen to watch that South Park episode where they picture the IGG History Channel in full power? The one with the "ancient astronaut theorists" demonstrating that aliens were among the Mayflower passengers?

That's the new generation's "history" channel for you...

EDIT: love your sig!

And its not just history channel...
Discovery channel, nat geo etc too.
I dont have network channels anymore, so its only when i visit my elderly mother i get to see them, but what happened??? Now its pretty much car repairs, antique salesmen and golddiggers.
What happened to science, exploration, nature and history documentaries?

Sign o the times :-( There are so many "competitors" of our time (tv, movies, computers, smartphones/tablets) that what is being produced mostly isnt about deep quality, but instead quick attention grapping junk.
You just cant serve 1 hour of "dry" science to the public anymore, so it have really become style over substance (with a few exceptions of course)

Ha..didn't see that one. What is IGG? some kinda sponsor?

I've long been thinking of dumping cable myself. Most of what I watch is on the computer anyway. "Vikings" is great, but I can see that on Netflix anyway. Too bad History Channel doesn't have more shows like that, as well as ..you know..history stuff.

I abhor all reality tv..all...of...eet.

Drakarska said:

They are actually lamenting that hardly anyone now days can't see past what is happening in the industry, and that when it is pointed out, they are berated for trying to help.

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Boy, is that ever true.

Aristos may back me up on this one, but the level of fanboyism and general foolish commentary over on the Civ 6 forums is approaching maximum density. And you are berated and criticized for saying anything against the holiness of Civ 6. Ed Beach has been deified, canonized, and sanctified. It's as if Elvis himself has risen from the grave and is bestowing Civ 6 on all of us. That most sanctified, holy game. Angels will sing upon it's release!

And I, for one, am evil incarnate. I am a heretic. I have dared to speak heresy against the holiest of holy games. Call an exorcist! I must be cleansed! Perhaps a good spanking, too.

Seriously though, TMIT has been trying to point out that people were mislead about MP on the release of CIv 5, and the game industry has adopted this practice of actively misleading consumers. He's being almost shouted down by people who are saying that it's irrelevant and that they don't care about being victimized or lied to.

Jeez, when did we become a society of brainless sheep?

I can see this in the news soon enough:

Lemon walks up to a man in a dark alley...
Lemon: Hey mister. You're a robber right?
Robber: Yes, but I'm not going to rob you. I'm on my coffee break.
Lemon: That's OK, you can have my wallet anyway.

Hey, I might as well fit in. Just give me a good blow to the head and I'm good to go.