Germany in BNW

Germany; +15% Production of military units when at war, also +15% Combat bonus when at war with more than one nation. +25% generation of Great People when at peace.

Japan; -50% Tourism pressure from nations that does NOT have an Open Border agreement with Japan. All wounded units fight as though they were at full strenght.
 
That is interesting. Japan should keep the Samurai. It is way too iconic. The Zero on the other hand should be replaced by a UB or maybe a UI like a Shinto Shrine that can only be built next to forests,lakes etc. Gives faith and provides a promotion of 10% combat boost to all units that are garrison there for at least 3 turns. Requires upkeep since Shinto Shrines are state sponsored so you can't go around spamming them but provide a boost to their warmongering. Their UA can be changed to reflect their belief that the Japanese Imperial Line was unbroken and reflects their proud culture though the Isolationist tag line does make me think that they might use the Tokugawa/Edo's policy of "Sakoku" or isolationist foreign policy.

Yes, Japan should definitely keep the samurai as a unique unit. That's one of the first things that comes to most people's minds when they think of Japan. However, I do think it needs to be reworked. I don't particularly care if they replace the zero with another unit or building. I think it might even be interesting to see those special fort replacements Japan gets in the Samurai Invasion of Korea scenario. But I think Japan's ability is great. Bushido, the way of the warrior, is very iconic and was by far the most influential factor in their warrior clans and imperial military. Really, in terms of militaristic unique abilities, bushido is as good as it gets in my opinion. Just as far as the abilities go, bushido beats the art of war any day as far as I'm concerned. However, the chukonu and paper maker make China as of right now a much better choice for domination in my opinion, the recent early game gold struggle making the paper maker even more amazing.
 
Germany; +15% Production of military units when at war, also +15% Combat bonus when at war with more than one nation. +25% generation of Great People when at peace.

Japan; -50% Tourism pressure from nations that does NOT have an Open Border agreement with Japan. All wounded units fight as though they were at full strenght.

Hmm…those are both very interesting! I really like that idea for Germany, except maybe take out the plus 25% of great people when at peace because that to me would become a bit overpowered when added on top of the other bonuses (which look great by the way) and that would start to overlap in my opinion with Sweden's bonus to great people generation, China's bonus to great general generation, and possibly even the Mayan's great person bonus.

And Japan, that is also very creative. Could you clarify though, does Japan still have full influence over the civs that don't have open borders with them? Because if Japan had no modifiers and the other civs had a penalty, that would be fantastic. However, as historically relevant and creative as this is, I don't know that they will need that. Bushido is a great inherent ability, I think if they fix the units Japan will be a truly formidable civ. plus, that tourism penalty could probably be applied to many other isolationist nations, like Korea (not that they need any more bonuses!) classically known as the "hermit kingdom".
 
Yes please fix Japan and give them some culture bonus despite isolationist tendencies. Honestly, in single player is Japan EVER a contending force? Never in mine because they are so isolationist. But a change like that could help them be competitive!
 
Hmm…those are both very interesting! I really like that idea for Germany, except maybe take out the plus 25% of great people when at peace because that to me would become a bit overpowered when added on top of the other bonuses (which look great by the way) and that would start to overlap in my opinion with Sweden's bonus to great people generation, China's bonus to great general generation, and possibly even the Mayan's great person bonus.
Its one bonus for war and one for peace kinda. The +25% bonus to GP would go away when at war... And many civs have bonus to GP. Austria have +25% from their Coffee Houses, etc...

And Japan, that is also very creative. Could you clarify though, does Japan still have full influence over the civs that don't have open borders with them? Because if Japan had no modifiers and the other civs had a penalty, that would be fantastic. However, as historically relevant and creative as this is, I don't know that they will need that. Bushido is a great inherent ability, I think if they fix the units Japan will be a truly formidable civ. plus, that tourism penalty could probably be applied to many other isolationist nations, like Korea (not that they need any more bonuses!) classically known as the "hermit kingdom".
Now when you say it, I think the -50% tourism bonus should go both ways, or it would probably be overpowered...?
 
there both warmonger civs and should remain so in regards to there uu ua. in fact dont change either just use minor tweaks as both are relatively fine as is imho. with the zero being the most deserving of tweaks. just my opinion, i know ppl are saying Germany and Japan are bad, but i just don't see it
 
Halved unhappiness from Ideological pressure would be a decent enough little thing for Japan. It would allow you to be able to go against the resident Tourism giants without having to focus on culture too much. Maybe even throw in there that Tourism is 25% less effective against them.
 
I've always thought Germany's UA was uninteresting. Off the top of my head, here are some plain, and probably OP, suggestions. Let's call the UA 'German Ingenuity:

-Build workshops, windmills, and factories in half the time. Specialists produce +1 hammers.

-Free Great Engineer upon being able to build workshops. Earn GEs 50% faster. (basically Babylon).

I think I could come up with something more unique given time, but I'd like a production oriented UA.


I think Japan is rather decent, just the zero should go for some kind of earlier UB or UI.
 
I have always thought Babylon was overpowered especially in the hands of a human player, I would fear giving a great engineer bonus to Germany like Babylon has great scientist bonus would be similarly overpowered, maybe I am overly concerned with balance given some of the other civs who are already pretty overpowered.

I think we have such a focus on Germany is because they are such a major civilization in terms of modern history and other then the Panzer UU they are not recognizable to the casual gamer, even the root of the unit maintenance reduction bonus which IMO is a really good representation of the Prussian era just isn't widely known history, so the focus tends to be on the WWII and post war Germany known for the rapid scientific discovery and leading industrial power.
 
The Panzer comes so late it needs to be more useful to gain an edge off of it. It's why the Zero is so very mocked here, and the B17 is so divisive. They are very, very late-game units that are only slightly more useful than their non-unique counterparts. It is a basic rule of strategy - the later it comes, the more advantageous it has to be for it to be worthwhile. It's why Rome and Greece and Assyria and the Huns and the Zulu are so devastating. Their uniques are simple, but they come at a time when that simple advantage is a huge bonus, since it snowballs later in the game. Capturing a capital in 1500 BC yields far more strategic advantage over time than capturing it in 1962 AD, since you can utilize and build up that city far more significantly at a time when it is weaker and your opponents don't have much better they could do, and with far less resources too.

And honestly, some of those civs get more of an advantage anyway if their same bonuses were applied to the Atomic Era. +1 movement? How sweet, that compares so very favorably to Impis getting a dual attack and having all the Ikanda bonuses by that point, which include +1 movement as well. And really, having a movement bonus on an armor unit is only a tiny little difference, since the best uses I've found for mounted/armor is city sniping and getting rid of ranged/infantry units, both things that one can do handily with 4 movement. It's handy at times but hardly anything you can base an entire strategy on if you're really warring all the way into the Atomic era, whereas a lot of early-game stuff you CAN base a strategy upon. That simple increased combat strength of the Ballista means it can take out those fortified cities way more handily, when Catapults would otherwise do somewhat marginal damage, and the Legions can hold their ground way longer than Swordsmen, while your rear lines can build a roadway out and get city connections up in no time.

Really? Why do people diss so much of the later-eras unique units? I'm a late-era warmonger and I LOVE those units, and they fit perfectly with my playstyle and porpuses.
 
Really? Why do people diss so much of the later-eras unique units? I'm a late-era warmonger and I LOVE those units, and they fit perfectly with my playstyle and porpuses.

Well, if you read his post, he is just suggesting that the later the unit comes, the better it should be. It makes sense, considering a Japanese samurai with shock and great generals II upgraded to Mechanized Infantry is going to be devastating for late game warmongering. The Panzer comes very late and should receive a buff to compensate since they haven't had the same amount of time to reap havoc and experience compared to earlier UUs.
 
I think the real problem with germany and japan are some of the core mechanisms of combat. Because archers/CB and arty (especially range 3 arty) do not get counter-battery fire, they are vastly superior to everything else. Simply considering all units to be "armies" or "fleets" with limited artillery/archers attached and allowing them to counter-battery (if from equal tier historically) would suddenly make all non-range units much more valuable. By doing this, Landsknecht, lancers and panzers would all get a semi-buff.

Second, i wish the air war would get a revamp. Carrier-based fighters should absolutely rule the seas. With an iron fist. This would make zeros far more valuable. On land, it has been historically nearly impossible to attack without air superiority. I dont really feel like this is reflected in the game. Having another layer or meta-layer going on with air power would be awesome. Its kind of hokey that everything is basically a carrier in the game. Cities are immobile carriers that cant advance with troops. And frankly, everyone reading this has probably crushed tons of civs in the WW2 era with no air support/carrier support at all. That is totally unrealistic. Currently all you need is any cav, pikeman, msuketman and a ton of range 3 arty. Range 3 arty even controls the coasts and seas.
 
I'd give Germany -25% unit maintenance and +25% production for military land units.
"Prussia was not a country with an army, but an army with a country."
 
I think the real problem with germany and japan are some of the core mechanisms of combat. Because archers/CB and arty (especially range 3 arty) do not get counter-battery fire, they are vastly superior to everything else. Simply considering all units to be "armies" or "fleets" with limited artillery/archers attached and allowing them to counter-battery (if from equal tier historically) would suddenly make all non-range units much more valuable. By doing this, Landsknecht, lancers and panzers would all get a semi-buff.

Second, i wish the air war would get a revamp. Carrier-based fighters should absolutely rule the seas. With an iron fist. This would make zeros far more valuable. On land, it has been historically nearly impossible to attack without air superiority. I dont really feel like this is reflected in the game. Having another layer or meta-layer going on with air power would be awesome. Its kind of hokey that everything is basically a carrier in the game. Cities are immobile carriers that cant advance with troops. And frankly, everyone reading this has probably crushed tons of civs in the WW2 era with no air support/carrier support at all. That is totally unrealistic. Currently all you need is any cav, pikeman, msuketman and a ton of range 3 arty. Range 3 arty even controls the coasts and seas.


By that first paragraph, do you mean that ranged units should basically take some damage when attacking melee units? I don't think that is a bad idea, but if they were to do that they would most likely have to rebalance things pretty much everywhere.


And I do agree that the air warfare is kind of lame, it's reall like using land units that can't leave cities. This goes with naval units as well, but one of the things I miss the most about the console version of civilization is that parking ranged naval units or airships next to your melee units would give them a naval support or air support combat bonus. I think there could be some value in reintroducing that here, because if you could get say a battleship fleet next to your land units, it was really quite game changing. Sometimes it did get a little silly with civs like England who got double naval support values, but I'm sure balancing it wouldn't be much of a problem.
 
I think it would be very interesting if they somehow had a defense against foreign tourism, but that may be overpowered.
 
Germany
UA: 100%, no extra gold
Panzers start with Blitz
Landsnecht replaced by mideval UB

Japan
UA: fine... Change the 'elite forces' tenet instead...
Samurai: fine
Zero: replace with Shrine that provides small religious pressure for Japanese pantheon/religion..+ culture if Japanese religion/pantheon is majority.
 
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