Restructuring of the Civ 5 C&C forum

Yeah, subtitles would be added - I was just sorting out the actual forums first, before getting to the subtitles. The current top level would look like this:

Code:
   + General Mod Discussion
   +  Ideas, Suggestions and Development
   + Completed Mods
   + Modding Help
   + Mod Creation Assets

The mod subforum name is a bit of an issue, because completed mods doesn't fit when there are still updates, but at the same time mods in development could have playable betas or whatever.
 
Because sub-forum names are listed under their parent forum's name the following structure:
Code:
Modded Games & Mod Creation
    + General Modded Games Discussion
        - Strategy
        - Requests, Ideas, In-development Mods
        - <threads>
    + Released Mods
        - {1 or more sub forums}
    + Mod Creation
        - Get Help with a mod you are making
        - How-tos, Tutorials, References
        - <threads>
    + Mod Creation Assets
        - Code Snippets
        - Utility programs
        - {1 or more art sub forums}

Would look like:
----------------------------------------------
General Modded Games Discussion: (5 Viewing)
Give or get mod recommendations, reviews or swap stores from your modded games.
Sub-forums: *Strategy *Requests, Ideas, In-development Mods

----------------------------------------------
Released Mods: (2 Viewing)
Only mod creators with ready-to-play mods should create new threads.
Sub-forums: *Mods *Maps *Total Conversions *Cosmetic Mods

----------------------------------------------
Mod Creation: (3 Viewing)
A place for mod creators, new and veteran, to talk shop.
Sub-forums: *Get help with a mod you are making *How-tos, Tutorials, References

----------------------------------------------
Mod Creation Assets: (1 Viewing)
Tools to make mod creation easier.
Sub-forums: *Code Snippets *Utility Programs *Art

----------------------------------------------
<no threads here>
The reason I feel strongly about not having a 3rd level of nesting is that any sub-forum of a sub-forum will not be immediately visible.

I've incorporated a strategy sub-forum in the "Modded Game Discussion".

The name "Released Mods" is likely clearer than "Completed Mods" as the intent is mods that have a playable version go there, not mods that are set in stone. As a mod evolves over time updates about it can be posted in its "Released Mods" thread.

Similarly, "In-Development Mods" in the "Ideas + Suggestions" section are intended to be mods that are not yet available to the public.
----------
I do not think "Modding Help" is a good name. People having trouble enabling mods on Macs, having trouble with the Workshop or some other issue that indicates a problem not specific to the mods they are using could end up posting there. The forum needs to explicitly call out that it is for creation.

A more general "Support" sub-forum could be added for these kinds of issues in the "General Modded Games Discussion" but that idea was not very popular and it does introduce some ambiguity.
----------
With respect to pulling some of the sub-forums up a level. Most of the sub-forums are intended to be either about technical or non-technical topics. By making the "Get help with a mod you are making" under the "Mod Creation" forum its location communicates that it is for technical people. Similarly, the locating of "Requests, Ideas, In-Development mods" under "General Discussion" communicates that technical detailed are not the purpose of posting in-dev mods there.

EDIT:
I do not think it would be a good idea to put "Suggestions, Ideas, In-dev Mods" at the top level. There are two needs that an in-development mod maker has, 1) technical/implementation help and 2) discussing the concepts or game-play of the mod with potential users. The audiences for each part are largely distinct and by placing "Requests, Ideas, In-Dev" under "General Discussion" it increase the contrast of that location with the "Get Help with a mod you are making" under "Mod Creation". It helps communicate that "Requests, Ideas, In-Dev" is a place where you don't need to know how to code to start up a thread.
 
Just noticed the thread, so here's my two cents:

  • First of all: Would all the currently existing threads be deleted and need to be remade, or would the mods just tirelessly move every single one?
  • I do think the names of current subforums should be slightly adjusted, like "New Civilizations" to "Completed New Civilizations" and "Tutorials and Reference" to "Tutorials Index" or something like that, whatever wording makes it clear that those forums are not for questions.
  • To build on that, I wouldn't object too much to a section specifically for questions. I say not too much just because I'm generally very bitter about change overall.
  • So, would Modcast episodes go in General Modded Game Discussion?
  • I guess I'm not understanding how subforums work. So we've got the top level Civ5 C&C forum - it would split into GMGD, released mods, mod creation, etc., and then each of those have subforums? Or is the top level C&C forum going to be removed and there will be, in essence, 4 distinct mod-related forums?
  • I don't what you have in mind for "Ideas, Suggestions and Development", Pouakai, but this sounds at least to me like something that a lot of newcomers would mistake for a request forum.

Also...
  • Within Mod Creation, could we just make a stickied thread that basically has all of whoward's tutorials on it, teaching the wisdom in using
    Code:
     blocks, an explanation of the most common things they're probably doing wrong and what kind of information we need to fully diagnose the problem? Sort of like a "Before you Post" thread, and then when we inevitably get new modders who just give us no information like "Gies my mod isn't working what do I do", we'll just redirect them to that thread. Hopefully, though unfortunately idealistically, they'll have already read the thread and have a mod attachment and database.log ready to present.[/LIST]
 
AgressiveWimp, my assumption is that the Civ 5 forum would not be touched. That this would only apply to how the Beyond Earth forum will be structured.
 
AgressiveWimp, my assumption is that the Civ 5 forum would not be touched. That this would only apply to how the Beyond Earth forum will be structured.
I was operating under the assumption that this was all about a re-do on the current forum. Otherwise why refer to it as "Restructuring" in the thread title? I would also assume these methods would be applied to BE.
 
When BE comes out the most dedicated fans (who are also those most likely to view or post on forums related to the game) are going to switch over. Investing a whole bunch of work re-organizing this forum just before a decent chunk of its audience moves on is not an efficient investment of effort. If the Civ 5 forum has survived this long in its current form than it is certainly sufficient to continue in this structure when its audience shrinks.

The needs of a BE forum will be different than the needs of the Civ 5 forum. Compatibility with legacy threads is not a concern for BE but it is for Civ 5. In Civ 5 "Civilizations" is a reasonable categorization for mods because Civilizations have large unique abilities as well as unique units and buildings. There is a lot of design space for mods that add civilizations -- lots of knobs they can turn. However, in BE factions have a much smaller design space. They don't have unique units or buildings and much of the early game is influenced by cargo and citizen choices. In BE I am skeptical that it would be valuable to categorize "Faction" mods in the same way.
 
If the game about to be released was Civilization 6, I would agree with you. But given that BE is, from what I can gather, more of a side-game than the next game in the franchise, I would argue that the majority of modders will continue modding for Civ 5, or at the very least mod both BE and Civ 5. Keep in mind that there's still an active modding forum for Civ 3 and Civ 4, years after they were surpassed by the next game in the core franchise. But since the scope and setting of BE is so different, I don't see the Civ 5 modding section going anywhere anytime soon. Plus, Beyond Earth is $90 here, so I imagine quite a lot of people probably won't get it as soon as it releases.

It's not that much of an issue re-organising the forum either. An admin will create the new sections where needed, I'll sort out a couple of the recent pages of topics and probably move the rest to an archive, where they can be recovered if the author wishes. But of course, retaining as many forums from the current iteration as possible will mean that there won't be as many topics to sort out.
 
AgressiveWimp, my assumption is that the Civ 5 forum would not be touched. That this would only apply to how the Beyond Earth forum will be structured.
...well, I kinda assumed from the name of the thread "Restructuring of the Civ 5 C&C forum" that these changes concern, well, the Civ5 C&C forum... :p
 
For BE many of the sticky threads should not be replicated. The "C++/Lua request thread" in SDK/Lua needs to go. It would be much better to let each question have its own thread rather than tangle them up in a single massive thread.

I can volunteer to write a "How to effectively ask questions: Dos and Don'ts" style post that could go in the "Mod Creation"->"Get Help with a Mod you are making" section.

Is there support, as far as BE stands, for the following structure?
Modded Games & Mod Creation (replaces C&C name)
----------------------------------------------
General Modded Games Discussion: (5 Viewing) <has threads>
Give or get mod recommendations, reviews or swap stores from your modded games.
Sub-forums: *Strategy *Requests, Ideas, Unreleased Mods

----------------------------------------------
Released Mods: (2 Viewing) <no non-sub-forum threads>
Only mod creators with ready-to-play mods should create new threads.
Sub-forums: *Mods *Maps *Total Conversions *Cosmetic Mods

----------------------------------------------
Mod Creation: (3 Viewing) <has threads>
A place for mod creators, new and veteran, to talk shop.
Sub-forums: *Get help with a mod you are making *How-tos, Tutorials, References

----------------------------------------------
Mod Creation Assets: (1 Viewing) <no non-sub-forum threads>
Tools to make mod creation easier.
Sub-forums: *Code Snippets *Utility Programs *Art

----------------------------------------------
<no threads here>
The sub-forums would still need subtitles and I could see splitting the "General Modded Games Discussion"->"Requests, Ideas, Unreleased Mods" into two sub-forums: 1) "Requests & Ideas" and 2) "Unreleased Mods".

Some of the sub-forums for "Released Mods" may also need to be changed if the current division is considered ambiguous. The "Mods" sub-forum may need a more general name since mods not belonging to another category (which will be most mods) will end up there.
------------------------------------
As for Civ 5, I think its different nature and legacy requires a different structure.

----------------------------------------------
General Modded Games Discussion: (5 Viewing)
Give or get mod recommendations, reviews or swap stores from your modded games.
Sub-forums:
*Strategy
*Requests, Ideas, Unreleased Mods

----------------------------------------------
Released Mods: (2 Viewing)
Only mod creators with ready-to-play mods should create new threads.
Sub-forums:
*Mods(Modpacks, Mod Components)
*Civilizations(New Civilizations)
*Graphics Mods(Graphics Modpacks)
*Scenarios(Scenarios)
*Maps(Map Scripts, Custom Maps)
*Project & Mod Development(move the whole forum in its existing structure)

----------------------------------------------
Mod Creation: (3 Viewing)
A place for mod creators, new and veteran, to talk shop.
Sub-forums:
*Get help with a mod you are making(much of the Creation & Customization level threads and SDK/Lua threads)
*How-tos, Tutorials, References(Modding Tutorials & References)

----------------------------------------------
Mod Creation Assets: (1 Viewing)
Tools to make mod creation easier.
Sub-forums:
*Code Snippets(Some Mod Component stuff may go here but it will be hard to identify)
*Utility Programs (Utility programs)
*Art(Unit Graphics, some Graphics Modpacks if they aren't intended for users)

----------------------------------------------
<no threads here>
Most old threads in "Civ5 - Creation & Customization" will get thrown into "Get Help with a mod you are making" but the rest will likely end up in "General Modded Games Discussion".

The SDK/Lua request thread should be deprecated in some way. Locking and renaming it is probably superior to just deleting it as locking will ensure people can still search through it.

For similar reasons the "New Civilizations"->"Civilization request thread" should also likely be deprecated in some way. Locking and moving it to "General Modded Games Discussion"->"Requests, Ideas, Unreleased Mods" is probably best. That will ensure that "Released Mods"->"Civilizations" is no longer pulling double duty as a location for released mods and work-in-progress discussion. Funneling that existing audience into the new "Requests, Ideas, Unreleased Mods" may help spark use of that new forum.

Lastly, the existing "Requested Mods" sticky should be deprecated in some way. Locking, renaming and moving it to "Requests, Ideas, Unreleased Mods" is probably best.
-------------
It's not that much of an issue re-organising the forum either. An admin will create the new sections where needed, I'll sort out a couple of the recent pages of topics and probably move the rest to an archive, where they can be recovered if the author wishes. But of course, retaining as many forums from the current iteration as possible will mean that there won't be as many topics to sort out. (emphasis added)
I salute your commitment and effort in improving CivFanatics and I hope I have not been overbearing. My main concern relates to the bold section. Restructuring Civ 5 C&C has to make trade-offs and sacrifices that Beyond Earth does not. I just want to ensure BE doesn't make unnecessary sacrifices just because those sacrifices were necessary for Civ 5.
 
Pouakai,

Slight thread-jack but still germaine to the proposed restructuring:
  • With reference to the plan to re-strucure the forum, and as a result some (perhaps most?) threads from the current "Creation & Customization" will be archived:
    • How will that affect the thread I, AggressiveWimp, and a couple other members have been looking at creating for a Common New Modder Mistakes Guide.
    • If we link to a thread where Problem/Mistake_X has previously been explored and discussed, with the solution to said Problem/Mistake_X, will that break the linking if the thread being referenced is placed in the archive area?

Example:
Description of Problem X
  • Most likely causes 1: description of the 1st most likely cause
    • see linked thread 1
  • Most likely causes 2: description of the 2nd most likely cause
    • see linked thread 2
If linked thread 1 is moved to the new replacement version of the "Creation & Customization" forum, all will be well. But how will things work if linked thread 2 is placed in the archive?

err, the thread we've been using to discuss what needs to be in a proposed Common Novice Modder Mistakes guide is here.
 
Okay, here's the version I have submitted to the admins for the Beyond Earth C&C section:

Code:
General Modded Discussion
   - Requests and Ideas
Modding Help & Mod Creation
   - Tutorials and References
Mod Development
Released Mods
   - New Sponsors
   - Maps & Map Scripts
   - Total Conversion
   - Cosmetic and Graphical mods
Mod Assets
   - Code Snippets
   - Utility Programs
   - 2D Art
   - 3D Models

I think a strategy forum would need an established modding sector first such as what we have here, so I've left it out for now. Also made it a bit clearer where exactly to go for help while still retaining the section as a place to talk shop, as it were. More subforums for released mods will be added if and when they're needed, once we are able to get an idea of what sort of mods are being made.

Are there any specific things which you think we should include in the section? Stuff like mega-threads, FAQ etc?

-------------------

If linked thread 1 is moved to the new replacement version of the "Creation & Customization" forum, all will be well. But how will things work if linked thread 2 is placed in the archive?

err, the thread we've been using to discuss what needs to be in a proposed Common Novice Modder Mistakes guide is here.

In that case, you could just flick me (or one of the other staff, but they might get tired of having to move topics whereas I'm fine with it) a PM and I'll move it to the relevant forum. We may make the archive viewable still, depends on the views of the others. In any case, it would only be for stuff which would need to be moved. So all of the stuff in the tutorials section, for example, would remain where it is, because that's still relevant there.

Great idea for that thread BTW, would definitely be stickied in the new help forum :goodjob:
 
I see two show stopping problems:

1) There is no "Get help with a mod you are making" sub-forum under "Mod Creation". This is the change that will keep new users from posting questions in the tutorial section. Its presence will greatly aid mod makers.

2) It is unclear if threads can be created directly under "Released Mods" or if threads can only be created under "New Sponsors", "Maps", "Total Conversion", "Cosmetic and Graphical mods". If the later is the case it is a huge problem. There would be no where for a game-play mod to go that isn't a "Total Conversion". A mod adds a couple of buildings? A mod changes how covert ops work? A mod that adds new Virtues? All of them would have nowhere to go.

Are there any specific things which you think we should include in the section? Stuff like mega-threads, FAQ etc?
Avoid mega-threads like the plague. Most of them are entwined conversations that would be better handled as separate, distinct, user-created threads.
 
Machiavelli makes some good points there. To that point, what exactly would constitute "New Sponsors"? Where would civilization threads go? And mods that currently fall under Mod Components?

Wait... I just realized that Pouakai's last post was the plan for the BE C&C forum... So, uh, ignore that last part, I guess. Doesn't apply to me. Personally, I think BE would be a waste of my money.

As for the New Modder thread that LeeS, I was thinking that it needs to include two things: both the list of common problems, their most likely causes and the consequent fixes, and what I call the list of "forum procedures", i.e. instruction on the use of
Code:
 blocks, links to whowards's tutorials so we're not constantly having to tell people to attach mods and check logs, that sort of thing. Without forum procedures, new modders make it fairly hard to assist them. 
So... should forum procedures and the common problem list go in the same stickied thread, like "Before you Post: A Guide for New Modders on the Forum", or should we split it into two threads? And should we just flat out create them and ask mods to sticky them, or should we only start them once a mod tells us to?
 
1) There is no "Get help with a mod you are making" sub-forum under "Mod Creation". This is the change that will keep new users from posting questions in the tutorial section. Its presence will greatly aid mod makers.
The Modding Help & Mod Creation forum is the Get help with a mod you are making forum. This will be made clear both with stickied threads within and in the forum descriptions of the main forum and Tutorial forum.

2) It is unclear if threads can be created directly under "Released Mods" or if threads can only be created under "New Sponsors", "Maps", "Total Conversion", "Cosmetic and Graphical mods". If the later is the case it is a huge problem. There would be no where for a game-play mod to go that isn't a "Total Conversion". A mod adds a couple of buildings? A mod changes how covert ops work? A mod that adds new Virtues? All of them would have nowhere to go.
Threads can be made under the main Released mod section as well as within the subforums.
 
The Modding Help & Mod Creation forum is the Get help with a mod you are making forum. This will be made clear both with stickied threads within and in the forum descriptions of the main forum and Tutorial forum.
If history is my guide, new modders aren't going to read the forum descriptions. As it is, we practically have to hit them on the head and read the descriptions to them. :p
 
The Modding Help & Mod Creation forum is the Get help with a mod you are making forum. This will be made clear both with stickied threads within and in the forum descriptions of the main forum and Tutorial forum.
One of the things learned during the Civ 5 era is that this is not enough. "Getting help with a mod you are making" is a use-case that makes up about 80% of the threads in the Civ 5 C&C forum and is often the use-case for first time posters. Centralizing them in an obvious sub-forum will greatly help new users intuit that it is where they want to post.

Stickies will not counter this as they don't get read (especially if there are multiple of them).

Threads can be made under the main Released mod section as well as within the subforums.
Adding a general "mods" (for mods not belonging to those categories) sub-forum instead of allowing posts under the main Released Mod section would be better. It would reduce the odds of a thread creator posting a "New Sponsor" mod to the "Released Mods" section because they didn't see the sub-forums. Or thread starters may post in the "Released Mods" section if they think it will get more eyeballs than posting in the "correct" location. If all posts must go in sub-forums than it will reduce the odds that moderators will need to move threads.
-----------
On a separate note, what is the intent behind the "Mod Development" section? Is it a place for mod creators to spitball ideas for mods that are still works in progress? Is it similar to the current "projects" section that gives dedicated space to specific mods? It would be wise to subsume it under "General discussion" in the former case or "completed mods" in the latter case to avoid new users confusing it with "Mod creation".
 
"Databases and Indexes" seems odd where you've put it I think. Surely it'd make more sense to put it either with "Modding Tutorials & Reference" or the "Development Threads".



This entire section seems strange to me: as it stands, it is difficult strategy for mods in a game like civ to be discussed, where even the most simple of changes can have a massive effect. (for example, JFD's Bavaria if you have the Göbekli Tepe wonder enabled: +5 Culture from the get go is a no-brainer) and it is very unlikely that any two players will have the same combination of mods, let alone the same versions of the same combinations. Strategy discussion are probably better paired with the major projects themselves (a la the situation in the Communitas project subforum); for "Small Mods" as you put it, the changes are rarely worth discussing.


Perhaps, "Mod Assets" would be a more apt description? It'd also help for people who are used to the term meaning "Small Mods".

I'll need some more time to think this through properly; I like the overall proposal however.

I agree with this.
 
I don't know what happened, but I no longer see the icon denoting that I've subscribed to a thread. It used to be an envelope on the right side of the title box (to the left of the paperclip denoting the thread has attachments).
 
I don't know what happened, but I no longer see the icon denoting that I've subscribed to a thread. It used to be an envelope on the right side of the title box (to the left of the paperclip denoting the thread has attachments).

Not only this, i cant see other users on the top info bar and for some reasons many members of fanatics that joined this year are listed as guests in there post.

Also several members cant join in there account, i hope this will be fixed soon.
 
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