My First Impressions of Gods & Kings

After playing Gods & Kings, here are my impressions:

- I am still unable to have my advanced settings saved. And there is still no Regenerate Map. This is very frustrating when I want to play a certain game, but don't like the map or starting location or neighboring civs. I would say this is the MOST annoying thing. Couldn't this be fixed in a patch?!!

- It is damn hard to found a religion using certain civs. The Celts always get a religion when in the game. But in my last few games, I have been playing the Korean civ and have yet to found a religion despite concentrating first and foremost on accruing Faith points. In my current game, there were a total of 22 civs on a Huge map at King level and only seven religions allowed. There wasn't anything for me to do with all my faith until I started purchasing Great Engineers later. So this proves that the number of religions is not determined by map size or number of civs.

- The Japanese civ still sucks. They always end up very small. Why? And no matter how much I try to become allies with Tokugawa, even liberating his cities or giving other civ cities to him so he can have a chance, why does he always have to declare war against my civ? This is even when setting to Random Personalities.

- The Danish civ still sucks. They always get wiped out. Why?

- The AI is much friendlier and they're not always trying to declare war. That's good. But there is still not enough ass-kissing when you are overwhelming in power.

- Some of the Wonders seem impossible to achieve by simply turns. I can never get the Forbidden Palace. It seems I just don't have a Great Engineer then. But the AIs never give me a chance to build that. Same goes for the Colossus, Great Library, and Hanging Gardens. But nobody ever wants Stonehenge or Pyramids... So I end up with a bunch of the same Wonders in the beginning.

- The unit jumping thing is still there. Annoying...

- Why can't I choose a state religion?

- Still no replay of the map at the end of the game, right? I really enjoyed seeing the video of how the map changes as time goes by. Too bad.

- Thank God for fair trades now! I can actually trade one for one with civs that don't necessarily like me.

- Hoovering over who's #1 or last does not show which civ it is in Demographics.

- Still no unit loss data.

- The camera control for the map drifts to one direction uncontrollably at times.

- The spies are just not fun. Not yet at least. I liked the sending of spy diplomats in previous versions.

- The Help section is still not helpful. I don't need to know the history of a type of unit. Just tell me what the unit does.

- Can someone explain to me why jungles still give bonuses to Universities? How many real universities are near a jungle?

That's about it for now.

By the way, does anybody know if there is a realistic Huge or Large world map that has accurate realistic starting civ locations and resources and is compatible with Gods & Kings? I have all the DLC except the Polynesians and Incans, I believe. Thanks.

siredgar said:

- It is damn hard to found a religion using certain civs. The Celts always get a religion when in the game. But in my last few games, I have been playing the Korean civ and have yet to found a religion despite concentrating first and foremost on accruing Faith points. In my current game, there were a total of 22 civs on a Huge map at King level and only seven religions allowed. There wasn't anything for me to do with all my faith until I started purchasing Great Engineers later. So this proves that the number of religions is not determined by map size or number of civs.

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I never have any difficulty founding a religion if I want to and I play on Immortal. I feel like your build order must be bad if you're not able to found one. The only 3 civs that have a religion-founding advantage over you are the Celts, the Maya, and the Ethiopians. All other civs have no faith bonus early. Try using gold to rushbuy shrines in your 2nd and 3rd cities or bribing religious CSs.

- The Japanese civ still sucks. They always end up very small. Why? And no matter how much I try to become allies with Tokugawa, even liberating his cities or giving other civ cities to him so he can have a chance, why does he always have to declare war against my civ? This is even when setting to Random Personalities.

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In my most recent game as the Huns, Tokugawa is the 2nd strongest civ and has had a DoF with me all game. Sounds like you're just unlucky.

- The AI is much friendlier and they're not always trying to declare war. That's good. But there is still not enough ass-kissing when you are overwhelming in power.

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Do you kiss the AI's ass when they're more powerful than you?

- Some of the Wonders seem impossible to achieve by simply turns. I can never get the Forbidden Palace. It seems I just don't have a Great Engineer then. But the AIs never give me a chance to build that. Same goes for the Colossus, Great Library, and Hanging Gardens. But nobody ever wants Stonehenge or Pyramids... So I end up with a bunch of the same Wonders in the beginning.

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Sounds like you never or rarely change your tech order. The Forbidden Palace is on a warmonger/economic tech path, which some AIs rush. Same with Notre Dame and Hanging Gardens. If you want to hard-build a wonder without using a GP, you basically need to rush that tech, ignoring all or most others.

- Why can't I choose a state religion?

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What effect would you want that to have?

- Still no replay of the map at the end of the game, right? I really enjoyed seeing the video of how the map changes as time goes by. Too bad.

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Uh, there has been a replay of the map in CiV literally since release day. Not G&K release day, like CiV vanilla release day. It's in a dropdown menu on the game over screen.

- Thank God for fair trades now! I can actually trade one for one with civs that don't necessarily like me.

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The AI only refuses to trade one for one if you are WAY ahead of it; again, even pre-G&K. It sounds like you need to bump up your difficulty.

siredgar said:

- Can someone explain to me why jungles still give bonuses to Universities? How many real universities are near a jungle?

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Uhm, Jungles provide a vast ecosystem for scientific research. Whether for climate or life jungles are definitely one of the more interesting places to do research and there's a lot of scientific research going on inside or related to jungles. To me it makes perfect sense that they give science bonuses. That alone would already be enough justification, but from a gameplay perspective I think they chose this simply to make jungle tiles more attractive. If it weren't for the science bonus, you wouldn't want jungle tiles at all, so there's at least some trade-off for you to think about.

I don't know how you can't build high-tech wonders. Research strength and production strength plays a big part of that. I've played games where I couldn't build any wonder and other games where I build almost 80% of them (without being Egyptian or using Traditions policy).

I try to get great engineers for manufactories and sacrafice great scientists early on for instant research discovery (when researching one item can be 15+ turns) for the wonders I want. (particularly great library and oracle early on for the extra tech and policy point) Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Geography plays a big role in how well you advance early game (particularly rivers imo).

I play on Emperor difficulty, so I can't say for the higher Diff. since AI starts off with more tech. But If I can't build wonders and the AI hogs them all, I switch strategy and concentrate on Military and try to invade their capitals and steal their wonders.

Which is the very latest patch ?

siredgar said:

- It is damn hard to found a religion using certain civs.

...

But nobody ever wants Stonehenge or Pyramids... So I end up with a bunch of the same Wonders in the beginning.

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I agree with some of your points, disagree with others, and find some total non-issues.

I just have to wonder though.

You always end up with Stonehenge and find it hard to get a religion? It should be hard to avoid a religion if you get SH!

siredgar said:

After playing Gods & Kings, here are my impressions:

- I am still unable to have my advanced settings saved. And there is still no Regenerate Map. This is very frustrating when I want to play a certain game, but don't like the map or starting location or neighboring civs. I would say this is the MOST annoying thing. Couldn't this be fixed in a patch?!!

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I very much hope so - the no saving settings (particularly the bizarre default "don't show workable tiles' output" mode) is one of Civ V's most irritating features.

- It is damn hard to found a religion using certain civs. The Celts always get a religion when in the game. But in my last few games, I have been playing the Korean civ and have yet to found a religion despite concentrating first and foremost on accruing Faith points. In my current game, there were a total of 22 civs on a Huge map at King level and only seven religions allowed. There wasn't anything for me to do with all my faith until I started purchasing Great Engineers later. So this proves that the number of religions is not determined by map size or number of civs.

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It is determined by map size, but not by number of civs if you alter it. The largest default map size is 12 civs, and religion is balanced around that. The most reliable ways to get enough faith are to get a pantheon with faith generation, Stonehenge and/or one of the Theology Wonders - the small early boosts you get from shrines (including Steles) or Mayan Pyramids are intended to help get a pantheon, they won't get you a religion without an unfeasible number of early cities.

- The Japanese civ still sucks. They always end up very small. Why? And no matter how much I try to become allies with Tokugawa, even liberating his cities or giving other civ cities to him so he can have a chance, why does he always have to declare war against my civ? This is even when setting to Random Personalities.

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I've only met him once in G&K. He was on another island and at war with Russia when I met him (he'd been doing a lot of denouncing as an Unmet Player), and didn't last very long. Then again, the Inca and my own Koreans didn't last the game against Catherine either (at least, I wouldn't have if she hadn't finished her spaceship first).

- The Danish civ still sucks. They always get wiped out. Why?

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Harald's charming personality. He never learned the meaning of the phrase "bite off more than you can chew".

- Some of the Wonders seem impossible to achieve by simply turns. I can never get the Forbidden Palace. It seems I just don't have a Great Engineer then. But the AIs never give me a chance to build that. Same goes for the Colossus, Great Library, and Hanging Gardens. But nobody ever wants Stonehenge or Pyramids... So I end up with a bunch of the same Wonders in the beginning.

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Great Library and Colossus are usually obtainable, and on King all Wonders ultimately should be. Hanging Gardens is a very high priority Wonder; Forbidden Palace goes because the AI typically favours a tech rush to Civil Service, and Banking is a short hop from there. It's probably because Mathematics is on the same tech path that Hanging Gardens goes so early.

- The unit jumping thing is still there. Annoying...

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Unit jumping?

- Why can't I choose a state religion?

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By default the state religion - in the sense of the religion that has an effect on your diplomatic standing - is the one you have in most of your cities.

- Still no replay of the map at the end of the game, right? I really enjoyed seeing the video of how the map changes as time goes by. Too bad.

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It's always been there, but it's much more badly done than in previous civ games - click on the 'Replay' tab when you see the victory screen. It doesn't start the replay automatically. What I don't know is why it doesn't do what all previous civ games did and have major events (Wonders completed, cities settled, cities captured) described in text on the same page - instead you have to go through the replay messages, most of which are trivial and uninteresting.

- Hoovering over who's #1 or last does not show which civ it is in Demographics.

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The civ icon shows who it is, or a question mark if you haven't met it yet.

- The camera control for the map drifts to one direction uncontrollably at times.

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Yes, this is a notorious bug. It happens if you're moving your cursor when you click 'End Turn', so you can minimise it by not doing so.

- The spies are just not fun. Not yet at least. I liked the sending of spy diplomats in previous versions.

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I much prefer this system - it makes a change from just being a different unit type with special abilities, but more importantly - while it takes practice to get use out of spies - it's a very interesting way of interacting with city-states and the limited numbers you have force sometimes hard decisions about how best to use them. The only downside is that spies scale badly on smaller maps, and it becomes a bit too easy to dominate with them because you'll have more than you need.

- The Help section is still not helpful. I don't need to know the history of a type of unit. Just tell me what the unit does.

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I'd much rather have more detailed background, actually - Civ IV and Civ V both stripped too much of that away. There aren't really many cases of odd rules where the Civilopedia entry is nonspecific or genuinely unhelpful, even though the ones that exist are irritating (what is a "science Wonder"? And how long did it take me to confirm that "pillaging a city" - the only way in which the term is ever used in the game being the Songhai UA - does indeed mean the gold you obtain from capturing a city?)

- Can someone explain to me why jungles still give bonuses to Universities? How many real universities are near a jungle?

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James Cook for one... They're next to universities because the game works on city-scale effects and a university has to be in a city to have an effect on tile production. It's not meant to represent the university itself being in a jungle, but the scientific benefit its researchers obtain - species discoveries and the development of scientific theories from observing the natural world, understanding of ecosystems, medical discoveries - from working in jungles. From a gaming perspective it's mostly there to present a strategic decision: do you chop down the jungle to grow your city or keep it there ready for when you build a university?

PhilBowles said:

Harald's charming personality. He never learned the meaning of the phrase "bite off more than you can chew".

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He's never been able to make it against those real warmonger runaway types, like Napoleon. It gets worse when you put him alone on a continent with said warmonger.



Even when he does runaway, its usually against folks like "Suleiman/William" or "Elizabeth and forest-less Hiawatha"

I agree with the OP that Spies are somewhat lifeless. I also liked it when you recruited them and sent them where you wanted. they felt a little more `there`. Now it`s just like a piece of paper where you sign an order which I guess is more realistic. Impersonal. I guess it makes easier to handle if they die. I also wish they did more... They don`t have enough options, like sabotage or even recruit enemy spies (double agents).

I disagree about japan, in my game, Japan was getting huge and a real threat. It destroyed one CIV then attacked me. I reduced it to one city. On Prince.

There is a Civ Replay. It`s just rather dry.

Thanks for all the helpful comments. It's good to know other people are experiencing the same things and also getting tips for improving my game.

I mentioned always getting Stonehenge, but I was confusing with my pre-G&K games. I will try to get Stonehenge early to acquire the Faith bonus. I have not really build it yet in my G&K games for some reason. Maybe other civs are getting it first. Anyhow, I will aim for Stonehenge.

My usual game is that I get to build about 80% of the Wonders, but never get certain ones (Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Great Library, and Forbidden Palace). The AI just don't seem aggressive on Wonders except these few.

More questions:

- How do I see what is my most popular religion?
- Are you sure about the AI only trading one for one when you are about their level? I have experienced demands for multiple for one in about all my games with even stronger civs in pre-G&K.

By the way, I recall in pre-G&K hoovering over the civ icons in Demographics showed the name of the civ. But now that is gone.

Truly wish they provided saved settings and a decent replay video.

I generally enjoy playing a relaxed game without having to deal with too many wars or unhappiness, but I will consider bumping up my difficulty to Emperor.

***And does anybody know if there is the map that I am looking for that is compatible with G&K?***

Stop wasting time building Stonehenge. Pottery > Writing. (I build Monument then Granary, but that's up to you.) Build GL. Calendar. Pick up Mining/Bronze Working/Animal Husbandry/Trapping if really needed. Drama and Poetry. Bulb Philosophy with GL. National College. Theology. Hagia Sophia. (You may be able to use a GE by this point. If you get HS before completing Liberty you can get another GPr and enchance soon after, letting you spam missionaries. You can also go for Great Mosque since no one else will be able to yet.)

At King level you have to have a really terrible start for this not to set you up. GL to get you started on NC sooner. NC gets you a huge boost early game. Should gaurantee a religion, unles extrememly unlucky. Even if all 7 pantheons are founded, you can still found a religion unless 7 have been founded (which is very unlikely.) I've only failed to found a religion and get GL once in G&K, and that was such a terrible start (lots of food, but no hills or trees nearby).

The only wonders I usually fail to get are Lighthouse/Colossus (I don't bother with them), HG (I haven't bothered since the nerf), Stonehenge (never build), Pyramids (which I'd like to have, but go after other wonders), and Great Wall (just hope my agressive neighbor didn't get it). Getting the early tech lead from GL/NC lets you hit the later wonders before everyone else, and unless you have low production in the capital area you can spam most of those wonders.

A side note:

Peng Qi said:

Uh, there has been a replay of the map in CiV literally since release day. Not G&K release day, like CiV vanilla release day. It's in a dropdown menu on the game over screen.

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Replays were not there when the game was released. The patch on June 27, 2011 added that feature.

The Patch Notes said:

Replay is now available at the end of the game, and through the main menu. You can choose Map, Graphs, and turn-by-turn. Only games played post-patch will apply.

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It was one of the features that a lot of people complained about the game not having when it came out.

siredgar said:

By the way, does anybody know if there is a realistic Huge or Large world map that has accurate realistic starting civ locations and resources and is compatible with Gods & Kings? I have all the DLC except the Polynesians and Incans, I believe. Thanks.

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Use gedemon's Not Another Earth Map...or something along those lines.

Its a giant map ( custom size) and has all of the civs currently in the game in realistic starting locations. The only bad thing is that only 22 civs are allowed in the game ( game limitation, not mod), so you can never have them all.

wannabewarlord said:

Uhm, Jungles provide a vast ecosystem for scientific research. Whether for climate or life jungles are definitely one of the more interesting places to do research and there's a lot of scientific research going on inside or related to jungles. To me it makes perfect sense that they give science bonuses. That alone would already be enough justification, but from a gameplay perspective I think they chose this simply to make jungle tiles more attractive. If it weren't for the science bonus, you wouldn't want jungle tiles at all, so there's at least some trade-off for you to think about.

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The good research seldomly happens around a big trading post built for some reason in the middle of a jungle. Researchers also travel to jungles for research, and don't necessarily work at a university conveniently built in a city near the jungle (which has a massive trading post in the middle of it).

pw8888 said:

I try to get great engineers for manufactories and sacrafice great scientists early on for instant research discovery (when researching one item can be 15+ turns) for the wonders I want. (particularly great library and oracle early on for the extra tech and policy point) Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Geography plays a big role in how well you advance early game (particularly rivers imo).

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You are better off planting that early GS as an Academy. Early in the game, you have very low per turn. When you burn a GS to bulb technology, you generate 8 turns of towards your technology. If you plant that GS as an Academy, you get +8 per turn (eventually +10 :c5science) which is modified by buildings (Observatory, National College, Research Lab) and can be doubled by the Freedom policy tree. That early GS bulb might generate 80-100 where as the Academy might generate 1,000+ over the course of the game. You also get all your techs earlier instead of just that 1 tech.

As a general rule of thumb, I plant GS as academies for the first half of the game and bulb techs during the 2nd half of the game. What defines half of the game is dependent on settings and victory condition goals.

Just an update. Started a new game as the Koreans at Emperor level with 15 civs and I am #1 in every field except military strength (4th). I have built the most Wonders (about 15 or so). I have founded the Confuncianism religion successfully. I am thinking of trying the Deity level. And I will try Gedemon's map. Thanks for the tips.

Just discovered that you can take information from your spies and pass it on to the victim Civ. I warned Ethiopia that Sweden was sending an enemy force for one of its territories. That was pretty cool.

So Spies do have some usefulness. Still wish they did as much as Civ4 though. Sabotage was always good. Civ 5 still feels like you get less than Civ4, even with GK.

But hey, at least you don't have to play the Spreadsheet Game like in IV.

buchengshi said:

Stop wasting time building Stonehenge.

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Stonehenge can be useful as it turns into a Great Engineer in 100 turns. Artimis and Pyramids can do this as well, but Artimis generally goes early on and Pyramids isn't always suitable to build.