Mazatl(and caulli) Changes, Good Balance, A few BIG problems.

So. I love the recent lizard civ changes. Deep jungles... while fun, always felt kinda buggy. And marshes not sucking anymore... is just gold...

Except. A few problems.

1. Mazatl especially, but even the Caulli, take OBSCENE times to build on their native terrain. 24 turns WITH tech, for a single Shaper or Laborer, to build a single Plantation. In contrast with the 9, it takes a standard worker to build a plantation through a forest.
This is on quick. 24 turns on quick... O.o... Nuff said?
I understand they are supposed to have poor work-rate(60) but that's a fair bit past poor, into abysmal.
I mean good god, 3 turns to build a road/trail on quick!?

This seems rather unflavorful. And leads to more of a nerf than even the Mazatl needed. Which is saying something.

Sub-note: I DON'T think that just putting their work-rate back to 100 is a good solution, I see their 60 work-rate very flavorful. Just... on Jungle/Marsh... Well. See above rant.

2. Marsh/Jungles(The replacement for Wetland/Deep Jungle) No longer have river trade bonus. Only plain marshes. Which don't stick around long in lizzie terrain along rivers.
This makes Swamp/Jungle/Marsh, somewhat abysmal for an improved tile. 3/1/1(Once you get trails, but that's easy enough) isn't bad very early game... But is quickly out shined by... Everything. Latter on they turn 4/1/1 but... It's along a tech path your not likely to follow.
I would suggest making them give somewhere around +1/2 to +1 health each(For lizard races, that is), this would supplement the old jungle health. But force you to decide between swamps, and better improvements. (Like. Aristo-sani-farms. Wind/Watermills. Cottages.
Or whatever, could use ideas here.


Anyway, that's it for now... and my ranting.

Nerf the workers, they shouldn't have scorch. You can just go early on with warriors turning the whole world into deserts.

Dux_ said:

Nerf the workers, they shouldn't have scorch. You can just go early on with warriors turning the whole world into deserts.

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That's ridiculous, why would you do that?

Lizards don't do well in deserts either.

Scorch and spring are necessary for managing the jungle terrain. Scorch removes swamps and marshes, and spring creates swamps, I believe.


The malakim have workers with scorch too.



I do agree that the production times are abysmal, though. Elves have a similar problem, though not as severe. Lizardmen used to be quite overpowered, judging by the ease with which they frequently topped scoretables, but I think they were nerfed a bit too much.

Why not an "on acquire" promotion that they only get while in a Jungle that increases their workrate enough to let them build things at a reasonable speed there?

Yeah, I did that with the Malakim for deserts, think it was included in FF as well.

Seems like a good idea.

But make it require the lizardman promotion, not a civ prereq. So that it works for all lizardmen.

Other balance problem: Lost Lands seems obscenely overpowered, while Cualli's Blood and Sacrifice seems sort of weak.

slave should give 100% more production, and work rate should increase by 200%

apotheoser said:

Other balance problem: Lost Lands seems obscenely overpowered, while Cualli's Blood and Sacrifice seems sort of weak.

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Now that the Lizards no longer get health from jungles. Its pretty balanced. You get enormous happy if your in jungles, but growing into it can be VERY difficult. (Unlike say, GoN elves. Who have little trouble growing...)
And it does require Currency to use Lostlands.
Blood and Sac IS a bit weak that said. THAT said, you get it at start of game. Don't even have to switch to it last I checked.

Also if you wana comment on balance between the two.. The Mazatl world-spell does nearly nothing(Oh yay, free building I already probobly built in most of my cities in all my cities... that... lets me build a unit I already built as many as I can of... Great.). The Caulli world spell is downright useful. Try settling your 4-6th cities all the same turn, and hitting the Caulli worldspell following said. Quickly build markets/such. Its not hard. Kaboom.

I actually find the balance really excellent on the lizardmen civs. I haven't had FF that long so didn't have the version before the change, but I see none of these problems the OP or anyone else mentioned at all. I don't see why an "offensive Scorch" is a problem either because it doesn't help you conquer anyone and justs wastes your time and resources. I guess if you wanted to Scorch neutral land that no one else is settling anyway it's your concern but doesn't seem broken.

So here's what I thinking of the workers/economy as a whole: playing as the Mazatl I found the workers to be a little problematic at first but quickly figured out an alternative strategy - you don't need to bother with building improvements everywhere when you can just cast Spring. And I have no clue why someone would say getting Tracking (for better Swamps) is off the tech path - it's still easier to get to than Sanitation for other civs and you'll probably want a fair amount of hunting/recon with the lizards anyway. So for the workers, turning nearly every tile in a BFC into 3/4 1 immediately is quite impressive, more than making up for the time to build improvements for bonus resources. I mean I wouldn't argue a 10% change to workrate but really I think it works fine the way it is. It could be more troublesome if you're not playing a real map suited for FFH, like just vanilla Continents or something and you can't find good city spots to settle, but then that's hardly unique to the lizards either. And you also have the benefits that your land is very unattractive for other civs to even bother with capturing and you get nice warfare bonuses, good for both the Cualli or Mazatl.

I like the civics as well, wouldn't say either is unbalanced. Lost Lands usually requires you to build trade increasing buildings and closing off foreign trade routes is no small penalty. And I believe the current version has happy but no health effects at all (neither positive nor negative) from jungles which fits pretty well. For the Mazatl their civics/buildings etc... all point to a well designed and balanced specialist strategy but of course can work otherwise as a civ should; Cualli are more than apt for warfare.

The one thing I do agree is that the Mazatl worldspell is rather underpowered, (Cualli is fine). I love the Sacellums opposed to traditional religion but the worldspell adds very little. I think there would be ways to spice it up from just a larger AC decrease, greater GPP bonus, or doing something like granting those 12 Wyvern Guardians you have to build a one-time Immortality.

The Mazatl Worldspell, along with the Scions one, and theArchos one, are not really spells at all.

Each of thm just constructs something. The first two would be better as wonders, the latter a a buildable hero.

I'm actually okay with the Archos worldspell, but yes, the Scions and Mazatl could probably use new ones.

Um, maybe I'm theorycrafting too much, but doesn't Mizquitli seem a little unbalanced? It's mostly the Aeron's Bounty promotion that bugs me. Healing 30% after combat makes it extremely difficult to mob (Or cast, even!) the hero down, since you need to guarantee 3 or 4 hits of what is likely to be a very uneven match. Further, with his spells and Twincast, he can ensure that he gets good heal rates, and is immune to first strikes without support.

he looks like a pretty fun hero to me.

Assasins in general are fairly low on defence, though. If he isn't, perhaps that should be reduced a bit. The general way to deal with assasins is to find them, and attack them, rather than waiting to be attacked.

WarKirby said:

he looks like a pretty fun hero to me.

Assasins in general are fairly low on defence, though. If he isn't, perhaps that should be reduced a bit. The general way to deal with assasins is to find them, and attack them, rather than waiting to be attacked.

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He's like, 14/13 after accounting for his Unholy and Poison combats (Which apply equally well on the defense as well as the offense), and also discounting any other bonuses to either. I really think that, without that +30% heal after combat (20 from Aeron's chosen, 10 from Cannibalize) he'd be absolutely gravy, but that 30% heal is honestly insane. Or at least, seems like it.

Well, that isn't really all that strong - it's just on par with late-game Paladins or Eidolons or other units. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't he require a pretty late tech (Malevolent Designs? Which also leads to potential unlocking powerful demons for other players anyway). And he'd probably be a lot weaker to certain civs that counter poison damges like Scions or Archos.

Edit at WarKirby, since it's not worth a whole new post - I think the problem is that a lot of the strength is in bonuses from unholy/poison. If you dropped him to 14/10 that would really be like 7/3 base strength, meaning he would be slaughtered by a civ that could counter his bonuses.

13 defence does seem awfully high for an assasin.

I'd advocate dropping him to 14/10

*cough cough*Jade Torc*cough cough*

Earthling said:

Well, that isn't really all that strong - it's just on par with late-game Paladins or Eidolons or other units. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't he require a pretty late tech (Malevolent Designs? Which also leads to potential unlocking powerful demons for other players anyway). And he'd probably be a lot weaker to certain civs that counter poison damges like Scions or Archos.

Edit at WarKirby, since it's not worth a whole new post - I think the problem is that a lot of the strength is in bonuses from unholy/poison. If you dropped him to 14/10 that would really be like 7/3 base strength, meaning he would be slaughtered by a civ that could counter his bonuses.

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I don't think his STATS are a problem at all! He's right up there with Mardero, with a different (And arguably easier) prereq. I think the problem is Heals 30% after combat. Every fight with him has to break 30 damage or it does NOTHING. Combine that with caster toys he has easy access to (Like Blur) and he's nigh impossible to kill.

Rutee said:

I don't think his STATS are a problem at all! He's right up there with Mardero, with a different (And arguably easier) prereq.

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Nope, he has harder prereqs than Mardero

They both require Malevolent Designs. Miquiztli also requires poisons.

The healing after battle is what makes him special. It allows him to assasinate repeatedly, and makes up for the inability of recon units to learn March. I really wouldn't like to see him lose it.

Against a str 14 unit, dealing >30% damage in a battle isn't too difficult. At the stage of the game he comes, you also get Eidolons. Or paladins, take your pick. Having Arquebuses is also certainly possible, and I don't think Berserkers are too much of a stretch. Miquiztli is a late game hero.