Sidar Plus

I think one turn is fine. It's easily enough for the dumb AI to counterattack and wipe out your unit, I doubt it's a problem for a human player either.

Main reason these will be a difference is I want to encourage different leaders for different lines.

WarKirby said:

Perhaps all sidar should have some protection from death damage in general ? though not 100%..

Click to expand...

I suppose it's what you imagine Death Damage really is. I see it as inducing mortal death; withering, rapid aging, etc. That's why races that aren't alive are immune to it. Since the Sidar have developed past these mortal ailments, I see no reason they wouldn't be immune too.

I agree here. Gives them a strong bonus against undead as well, which they should have.

I see death magic more as targeting the soul. Undead may not be alive, but they still (some of them) have flesh and blood, so if death damage targeted the body, it should affect some undead too. I see it more as targeting anything with the spark of life, trying to remove that from the body. In which case shades being immune, and all sidar particually resistant seems good.

I think we might as well have a "Sidar" racial promotion, since they don't seem quite human. Also, I really love racial rpomotions because it makes testing artstyles easy (if you tie it to the promotion, like dwarves and elves)

Ok, so a quick review:

1.) A improved Divided Soul for their units
2.) possibly invisible scouts and/or workers
3.) racial promotion that gives withdrawal chance and immunity/resistance to death magic

Anything I'm missing?
Also, I think that since it says in their pedia entry that 'they are hard to kill' they could have as their secondary special effect (in addition to waning) that Shades who are above a certain level when killed are actually recreated in one of their cities, but with an experience penalty, probably exponential as per the level of the unit. That way its not too powerful of an effect and it fits the lore of the Shade being partially separate from the mortal realm.
Perhaps we could also have a few UB's for the Sidar? They deserve it I think, I just can't think of what the buildings would do at the moment.

Oh Warkirby and Rystic, from what I know, you're both right. The precept of Death, being the antithesis of Life, where Life makes a harmony of spirit and body in the mortal realm, Death magic twists both and disrupts the connection, causing pain from the separation and then 'death' when the separation is complete.
Hope this helps even just a little.

-A9A

invisibility within borders for all units, I think it would suit.

Or perhaps even a more involved aspect. Like a "Mists of the Sidar" building that can be built in every city, and provides a free promotion to all units within the city radius, which does things including invisibility.


Actually, I'm thinking it might even be nice to give them a unique "Mist" feature, which their workers could spread. There's already a nice graphic for it with the Blizzard, which could be reused. It could give a commerce bonus on the tile, and make all sidar units inside it invisible, even if it extends out of their borders.

WarKirby said:

invisibility within borders for all units, I think it would suit.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Could be very easily implemented by making the Sidar Palace turn things invisible like Nox Noctis.

The mist feature sounds cool. It could even be that their worldspell makes all Sidar units automatically spread mist wherever they go for 10-20 turns or so. I just imagine a cloud of mist starting to pour into an enemies lands, and people dissapearing into the fog.

I even used that in my text as a Sidar when I was attacking the Orcs in an MP game. A course, I didnt have an elaborate army, just some hunters from the worldspell and some ghosts, but I felt very "into it" as they say XD


I really like building Idea "Mist of the Sidar". Only not city radius, but however far the cities culture has spread, I think.

I was also thinking, to balance these buffs, that the Sidar would be banned from building or summoning Undead units. My rational is along the same lines as why the Calabim can't make Elder Councils.

why can't the Calabim make elder councils? Im not debating your choice, its probably best the Sidar didnt use any of Arawn's disfavored necromancy.

I have, however, always wondered why vampires cannot build elder councils

Because there are no old people in Calabim society. They eat them.

Presumably, it is because the councils would draw upon the knowledge of the common man who has grown to a great age and gained wisdom from the experience, but the vampires never let the common man live that long and they like to keep their chattel dumb.

MagisterCultuum said:

But death magic goes against everything Arawn stands for! The Sidar abhor necromancy, and so should definitely not start with death mana, unless maybe you gave them a seperate set of promotions/spells for death, the way the scions get Corpus promotions for Body.

Click to expand...

My take on this is to let them do Necromancy, but give all Undead units they produce the Weak promotion.

Would it be too much if the Sidar racial promotion had a small chance to randomly grant Hidden? Some of the pedia entries seem to imply that the Sidar don't have full control of their invisibility and that they can have trouble getting people (including their friends and family) to notice them when they want to be seen.

Click to expand...

I tried this, and let me tell you, it's much better sounding on paper. I made a new promotion based off Crazed that randomly granted an Invisibility promotion with a
+25% expiration. The result? My first settler out was eaten by a Giant Spider after the warriors following him turned invisible. I realized immediately that this was an omen.

I see no reason to give the Sidar such a bonus vs Melee, or to make them weaker to animals.

Click to expand...

I agree there, but what's your take on a resistance to Death Damage? WarKirby and I are trying to figure this out for a possible racial promotion.

I guess some resistance to death damage could be ok, but I tend to think that immunity to first strikes and to the marksman promotion might be more appropriate.

what about immunity to defensive strikes as well? or would just marksman and first strikes be better?

Okay, the revised list:

1.) A improved Divided Soul for their units
2.) possibly invisible scouts and/or workers
3.) racial promotion that gives withdrawal chance and immunity/resistance to death magic
4.) invisibility for all units within borders
5.) Mists of the Sidar building
6.) 'Mist' feature for workers and part of their WorldSpell
7.) Inability to use Death magic/ summon Undead units

I think the main problem with the invisibility thing is what Rystic described: Your weaker units can become vulnerable, and even if all units are invisible, is it possible enemies could just take your cities without fighting? It seems a bit of a broken (buggy and imbalanced) concept. How about instead military units have an increased chance to become invisible while your vulnerable ones (settlers, workers, etc.) are always invisible in your borders?
I agree with #7, good idea. Under the same logic, do you think Life magic should be restricted as well?
Is there another word we could use instead of just mist? Why no ether? It sounds better when words aren't spammed.

EDIT: Never mind, they should probably be able to keep Life magic since it is technically separate from the reasoning behind Death restriction.
Oh, and this was wrote more than an hour before it was posted, so I apologize if this is already outdated.

-A9A

Invisible units are visible in cities so the enemy can't just walk in

MagisterCultuum said:

I guess some resistance to death damage could be ok, but I tend to think that immunity to first strikes and to the marksman promotion might be more appropriate.

Click to expand...

That sounds good, but won't it be just a litle OP? If that was added we'd definitely have to take something else out, or else we'd be giving the Sidar too much special treatment.
Alright, so I gave out my ideas. What's going to go in and what's too imbalanced to use?

Reason I care so much is because I really like the concept of the Sidar and so far justice hasn't been done to their piece of lore, until now.

-A9A

Randomness said:

Invisible units are visible in cities so the enemy can't just walk in

Click to expand...

Thank goodness, I was worried.

Okay, I'm going to push an idea of mine because it really fits with the Sidar more than any other civ.
Could we have it that Shades of a high enough level, when they die they would be reborn in Sidar lands, but with an experience penalty to prevent over-use? Maybe set it so it's only if they die in their own lands, or if they die by physical means (meaning death by magic won't reincarnate them) or even both? I really want to see this in a Sidar+ mod, and it does fit well with the lore and the discontinuity of their connection with the mortal world.

-A9A