Underrated UUs/UBs

Crap, I miss stuff like that. It's like with the Conqs and the way they get defensive bonuses. Good points.

I'll also concede the point about the forum. Those multipliers are always so deceiving... 25% seems like a huge boost on paper, but I still haven't figured out how the formulas work in practice. Speaking of the formulas, not to derail the thread, but I've always wondered... If you're PHI and running Pacifism, does the Parthenon actually offer a noticeable difference?

imo, the real problem with forum is that a market is a big hammer investment for cities that want nothing more than a lib at most (or NE if it's the big one). you don't have time to build a market in these cities and 25% more GPP in the cities you would build a market in is pretty weak. it's good if you have a lot of static gold (merchants/trade routes) and food in a city to get more merchants and consequently, GMs. you don't always get these though and it's pretty weak compared to a lot of other UB options. it's completely worthless if you're relying on converting commerce into gold because you'd have to be working cottage tiles instead of using merchants.

but at least forum has a use, unlike the stele...
 
the stele does have a use. it can quickly get your culture on track so early on it can be amazing wielded properly.
 
Stele is quite low-tier but it still has a use. It will break culture ties at each border pop tier and on a lot of maps you don't need astronomy when pursuing a cultural victory so you basically get ~ a great artist's worth of culture spread across your 3 legendary cities. Not great but certainly not useless.

It's probably better than most of the late UBs just because it has a higher chance of doing SOMETHING positive before the game is decided in one fashion or another.
 
The Celt's Gallic Warrior.
It's not in the Top tier. Not even close.
Ask anyone, Axes beat Swordsmen, so why build it?

1) The Celt's Swordsman starts with Guerilla1, so it can get Guerilla2 (and it's double movement in hills) with just a barracks.
2) It only requires Copper to build, so one doesn't have to wait to hook up Iron.
After killing a few barbs and one can easily get Guerilla3 for it's 50% Withdrawl Rate, especially, considering Boudica is AGG/CHR.
3) All of this creates a niche where Gallics can be used before another unit, Praetorians, for example. And we all know that depriving Rome of it's Iron is very important, when they are close to you.
And, that's just it's attack advantages.

Defensively, the usually wimpy swordsman couldn't defend well vs some attacking stacks.
4) However, a fully fortified Guerilla2 Gallic Warrior defending it's hilled city is another matter entirely.

5) Also, the Gallic makes a Great unit for scouting enemy territory and worker stealing during 'Always War' games. The AI views the unit as a 1 movement unit, so it doesn't move it's workers back into the city, when the gallic is 2 spaces away and could move speed2 onto the worker's tile.
6) It is the Only unit before Gunpowder that can get all of the Woods and Guerilla promotions. Promoted as such, it becomes nearly impossible to dig out of a forested hill when fortified. It is a 6 (plus Boudica's combat1) =7.2, with a +200% defense. One can earn a lot of Great General xp from stupid AIs thinking this 'Swordsman' is an easy target.

The Celt's UB is typically voted in the Top 5 worst UBs. If it was permitted to give it's bonus to all units built in the city, this attitude would change. However, as it stands, it only effects units that could normally get the promotion anyway (Archers, Longbowmen, Crossbowmen, Musketmen, Grenadiers). They just get it free.
7) I tend to upgrade my Grenadiers into MachineGunners with Guerilla2 to defend my attacking stacks and hilled cities. Considering MGs can't get the Guerilla promotion normally, this makes attacking Celt cities and protected stacks much more difficult.
8) Like the PRO example, when you find yourself without any Horse, Copper or Iron, you will be glad you have some kind of advantage to defend your cities with, until you can capture a unit source and Guerilla1 at least gives your Archers some capability to defend your hilled cities and mines.
 
I actually wouldn't say the Dun is one of the top five worst UBs. Sure, it's a questionable bonus on a useless building, but at least it has great synergy - possibly the best of any UB, in that regard (except maybe Aztecs, heh). It's a niche building, but that still makes it better than some other UBs I could mention.
 
Great synergy by (not) giving the UU any benefit? Dun is a reasonable defensive structure for hill cities or to build units defending them. It has some minor application in putting an extra promotion on gunpowder units, which unfortunately doesn't include rifles. Maybe gren/cannon can work, but if you're a tech away from guerrilla III grenadiers or from CR II cannons, the cannons win.

That makes the dun mostly useful as a defensive grinder in hill cities. The fact that it will *sometimes* provide a material benefit early causes me to put it ahead of crap like the mall and assembly plant, and the slant on survival causes me to put it ahead of things like the stele also. However, it's still in the bottom tier of UB even if it is pretty obviously not the worst because it is inconsistent in its ability to contribute at all and inconsistent in its ability to change outcomes when it does contribute.
 
Getting industrialised quickly is a huge advantage. So Assembly Plant is very solid. Shale Plant is also a very solid UB as you can build the national park absolutely anywhere and still get power in that city.
 
Getting industrialised quickly is a huge advantage. So Assembly Plant is very solid.

Nope.

First of all, when you compare the hammer savings on that compared to early-game savings, it's not impressive. By turn 150 (if you're teching quite extremely well) or more likely 200+ you're already covered more than 2/3 of the critical turns in the game where the outcome is decided one way or another.

Second, you don't actually have a guarantee of being able to build it more quickly.

A building with an unreliable and fairly minimal bonus that comes so late that it will often not even factor into the outcome of the game is not worthy of the term "solid". It is worthy of the term "bottom-tier". Assembly plant isn't underrated, it's actually that bad. Bad as the dun is, it has a much greater likelihood to meaningfully contribute to a game at start than the assembly plant, with the sole exception of later-era starts...which is pretty much the only time those late uniques are ever actually good.
 
Great synergy by (not) giving the UU any benefit? Dun is a reasonable defensive structure for hill cities or to build units defending them. It has some minor application in putting an extra promotion on gunpowder units, which unfortunately doesn't include rifles. Maybe gren/cannon can work, but if you're a tech away from guerrilla III grenadiers or from CR II cannons, the cannons win.

so everyone loves the native americans as a defensive civ but there UB doesnt benefit there UU so is everyone just illogical?
 
so everyone loves the native americans as a defensive civ but there UB doesnt benefit there UU so is everyone just illogical?

Actually there has been a typo in Civ4 since forever, the actual Native American UU is the Drill 3 LBows. They have absolutely no weakness to any units during that time period, On a replay of a BOTM a long time ago, I was able to pull off Oracle>Feudalism and built a bunch of LB's and went around absolutely distroying all that were nearby. Hatty, Darius and either Alex or JC, I can not remember. Dog soldires are just there for MP duty. :p
 
Actually there has been a typo in Civ4 since forever, the actual Native American UU is the Drill 3 LBows. They have absolutely no weakness to any units during that time period, On a replay of a BOTM a long time ago, I was able to pull off Oracle>Feudalism and built a bunch of LB's and went around absolutely distroying all that were nearby. Hatty, Darius and either Alex or JC, I can not remember. Dog soldires are just there for MP duty. :p

actually I would like to see some SGOTM game with Sitting Bull to see how the pro's would go with this ;-)
 
so everyone loves the native americans as a defensive civ but there UB doesnt benefit there UU so is everyone just illogical?

Everyone loves NA? They're certainly decent/solid, but I am hardly seeing this love you describe.

Their UB is much more *consistent* than the dun (dun relies greatly on hills, experience for archery does not) and much more commonly built (monument is used for border pops often, walls less so other than on borders). Their UU is also more consistent, and although it nerfs the axe rush it gives early tech flexibility vs barbs and really owns enemy melee rushes...and not just on hills.

What puts totem pole over dun (though totem pole is a pretty average UB too, at best) is that both its offensive and defensive capabilities ARE consistent. Protective crossbows have some teeth, and NA can stack up drill or counter promos on them like nothing. Protective longbows with CG III are obviously a pain, but NA gets that on its archers too and it really changes the viability of rushing them (even on flatland cities, swords struggle). They last about the same time (only viable/meaningful unit celts get with guerilla I off of the dun that totem doesn't get is muskets), but one is helpful regardless of terrain and applies the bonus to flexible XP instead of a promo that is fairly dodgy without lots of hills.

I'm not saying the UU/UB have synergy for NA though. Just calling out the ridiculousness of an earlier poster claiming the celts DO have UU/UB synergy, which is nonsense. Keshik/Ger is synergy. Impi/Ikhanda is synergy. A defensive structure that does not apply its bonus to the UU regardless of its existence is not synergy. To rub salt in that "synergy" argument's wounds, the only units the ger helps are not really ideal for keeping gallics safe from counter units, aside from on hills where gallics dominate anyway.

They have absolutely no weakness to any units during that time period

Actually, they have a glaring weakness. The AI just won't expose it because it's terrible.

Horse archers are less :hammers: (even without AI bonuses), can also reach a 2nd promotion easily, are available earlier, ignore ALL of those first strikes, and have a withdraw chance. Even with drill II + formation, a longbow pushing into enemy territory on flatland will see HA at 7.2 str vs 6(.25)+6= 7.5. Barely better odds, before factoring withdraw chances, ANY collateral initiative at all (AI doesn't use that well though), or the flanking damage this will cause to any siege you bring. Comically, if opposing swords can get cover they'll cause problems too.

You DO need siege, too. Longbows struggle vs archers defending cities, let alone things like axes or swords with any amount of 20-40% culture, or 50% walls, or fortify. And of course, the dreaded noobiphants can always cause a beatdown too, but they're overpowered anyway ;).

Also note that ANY protective civ can produce drill III longbows by simply swapping into vassalage, which you can always do if you have the ability to build them. NA simply has 3 extra xp towards drill IV and while that is definitely useful, it's not spectacular unless you're playing churchill of NA :).
 
For the record, I don't love Native America at all.
Only UU I consider a drawback. I'd normally value a resourceless life saver that doesn't require us to tech Archery... but we already have a junk trait and a junk UB to improve junky archers to the point they'll do.
PHI is a fine trait, but nowhere near enough to make up for all the junk.

Less than impressive compared to Mali which sports an unbeatable defense, excellent economy including a synergistic UB, and the ultimate diplomacy trait to get us out of a fix.

Incidentally, I rate the Dun considerably above the Totem Pole. I find the parent buildings equally useless, I'd rather have G1 than 2xp, and applying to Gunpowder units is still somewhat relevant in my opinion. G3 Musketmen deal with Longbow-defended castles, G3 Grenadiers deal just fine with Riflemen.
Not that I consider the Dun a strong UB, but for a strictly military benefit it's not bad.
 
so everyone loves the native americans as a defensive civ but there UB doesnt benefit there UU so is everyone just illogical?

I <3 Churchill of Native America - CHA for faster promotions, and Totem Poles also give +1 :)

I hate the Celtic UB / UU.
 
Actually, they have a glaring weakness. The AI just won't expose it because it's terrible.Care to share the weakness or are you refering to HA.

Horse archers are less :hammers: (even without AI bonuses), can also reach a 2nd promotion easily, are available earlier, ignore ALL of those first strikes, and have a withdraw chance. This assumes that the LB is on open land. How well will they do when that LB is in a forest/jungle? The specific game I am refering to, my LBs gave no horse, copper or iron access to the said AI particulartly alex/or JC because i was concerned. Also I did have cats in that party. One other point, most of old times do not use any of the promos, do we? :) Not untill needed, say for healing. Even with drill II + formation, a longbow pushing into enemy territory on flatland will see HA at 7.2 str vs 6(.25)+6= 7.5. Barely better odds, before factoring withdraw chances, ANY collateral initiative at all (AI doesn't use that well though), or the flanking damage this will cause to any siege you bring. Comically, if opposing swords can get cover they'll cause problems too.Again unlike an AI, I plan my attack plan just like you do with you exploring warrior. 90% of the time I am using defensive terrain. granted that some time there is no choice but to go into open, but AI being AI won;t plan as well as you or I holding back their attack. I am not sure if you do this or not but, it is common for me to employ an axe and a spear for pillage parties into AI land. Single LB with 2 available promos are extreamly effective on there own. The promotions are not always Drill line for me, I am happy with anti archer promotions (cover?).

You DO need siege, too. Longbows struggle vs archers defending cities, let alone things like axes or swords with any amount of 20-40% culture, or 50% walls, or fortify. And of course, the dreaded noobiphants can always cause a beatdown too, but they're overpowered anyway ;).This is where the denial of resources comes into the picture. But like I said, i did use cats in that game, at the same time, the losses were very minimal.

Also note that ANY protective civ can produce drill III longbows by simply swapping into vassalage, which you can always do if you have the ability to build them. NA simply has 3 extra xp towards drill IV and while that is definitely useful, it's not spectacular unless you're playing churchill of NA :).
No arguments with logical statements and things I do not know about as in Churchill of NA.

EDIT: Churchill is charismatic...wow. Now that is a great combo.
 
EDIT: Churchill is charismatic...wow. Now that is a great combo.

I did a test game just now, built the stonehenge and oracle with a high production + 2 gold start, and took Feudalism for free.

With Vassalage Churchill of Native America pops out Drill IV Longbows at 1000 BC, along with +2 :) per city. Eat that Machinery bulbing :p

Oh wait, thats epic speed 1000 BC, I'll try it again on Normal. I also forgot that I could have bulbed Monarchy with my first Great Prophet, but it should still be a lot faster than Machinery (Native America starts with fishing too).

I got put right next to Charlemagne of Mali though :O ... Which made those Longbows useless.
 
I find the parent buildings equally useless

Really? I know Monuments aren't the best buildings in the game but surely they're more useful than Walls? Early culture pop and +1 :) if you're CHA is significantly better than +25% bombardable defense.
 
Well, tbh I agree that regular monuments are useless, steles are also mostly useless, and totem poles are incredibly niche.

And that niche doesnt really suit Sitting Bull very well, it suits Churchill better, as does any other Archery based UU / UB.

I've actually never played Sitting Bull of Native America and wouldnt want to, simple reason being that when I see the Totem Pole, its asking to be played with a CHA / PRO leader, i.e Churchill. The only time I even consider monuments is if I'm playing a CHA leader, as its 30 :hammers: for +1 :) and +1 :culture:. Otherwise if I need border pops my first build will be a library, the only exception bring if I'm right next to enemy borders and need culture faster, but even then a monument still isnt worth 1/3 of a library.

Then on the other hand, if I want to play a PHI leader, why exactly would I pick Sitting bull instead of any of the others (Pericles and Liz being my favorites, Frederick, Peter, Gandhi all being good as well).

Walls are more useful than a plain non CHA monument, far far more useful.
 
I feel the garden is underrated. The hammam is typically held in high esteem because it raises both happy and health cap. Comparatively, the garden provides 1 less happy assuming no culture slider (probably a fair assumption), but also is a bit cheaper (and has the potentially to be much cheaper if you played Babylon with an unrestricted, creative leader--can't be done with aqueducts). I rarely run into health problems until after I've reached construction. So if you only start to run into health caps after construction, you can look at the garden as an aqueduct replacement that is 20 hammers cheaper and provides 1 :) with potential for more happiness from the culture slider, though I readily admit that this is generally negligible.

Also feel that the hippodrome is a little underrated, considering that it doubles the effects of the culture slider for happiness and provides the base happiness from a much more readily accessible resource.
 
Hippodromes aren't mentioned much which is a shame. At 10% culture slider you get +4 :) making it the most powerful happiness UB in the game (even better than Hammams, ball courts or anything else). Gardens are good because they are +2 :health: and +1 :) right off the bat without needing to touch the culture slider, while regular colloseums are a terrible hammer investment, and need 20% culture slider for just +2 happiness which is absolute crap. Hammurabi is just too odd a combination of uniques though, an Agg leader with an Archery UU and extra health building. I always thought he would actually be better as Pro / Org instead, and as he currently is, he is underwhelming compared to Shaka who does everything better.
 
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