Not Another City States Mod

In Thal's Diplomacy thread I was saying that the bonus Prod, Prog and Pros offer would need to be very substantial to be worthwhile. How much am I going to spend on more GP's or GA's? It would have to be either a great deal, or such a powerful boost as to break immersion, since major-civ culture probably wouldn't generate so much.

On a credibility level, I can imagine how a relationship with a Prog CS could result in more GP being born in my own civ. I don't see how the same could be said for more GA's, or more production. How could another county raise my hammer count?

Txurce said:

On a credibility level, I can imagine how a relationship with a Prog CS could result in more GP being born in my own civ. I don't see how the same could be said for more GA's, or more production. How could another county raise my hammer count?

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Outsourcing maybe? E.g. If you build a swordsman, the City States makes the breastplates and delivers them to you? It's kinda wonky, but that's how I see it anyways.

Nice job with this mod, I just played it...some good ideas here. I was wondering if you plan to further differentiate between lesser civs and city states, in terms of gameplay. (sorry if it's already mentioned, I didn't follow all this thread)

Txurce said:

In Thal's Diplomacy thread I was saying that the bonus Prod, Prog and Pros offer would need to be very substantial to be worthwhile. How much am I going to spend on more GP's or GA's? It would have to be either a great deal, or such a powerful boost as to break immersion, since major-civ culture probably wouldn't generate so much.

On a credibility level, I can imagine how a relationship with a Prog CS could result in more GP being born in my own civ. I don't see how the same could be said for more GA's, or more production. How could another county raise my hammer count?

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You raise some valid points.
I imagined the productive city-states helped by having stuff outsourced to them, as Catastrophe said. They'd provide you with the stones for the buildings etc.
The prosperous city-states would have a positive influence over you by being a patron of arts and generally elevating your civ's standing and spirit. I actually wanted to do a happiness bonus, which would maybe be more intuitive, but I don't think you can code that. (You can add temporary buildings/luxuries to provide the bonus, but how do you stack that?)

As for the bonuses, I think the GA bonus is substantial because of the gold and production it means. The investment certainly pays back.
The GP bonus is maybe an odd one. If it doesn't work out, I can also replace it with a more simple random chance of being given a GP, if you'd like that more.
The production bonus probably is the least exciting. I just checked what the overall effect is and it amounts to about 1 high-cost building or 2 low-cost ones (costs scale per era, so does the bonus) per 30 turns, spread over all cities. Is that a good bonus or not?

mihaifx said:

Nice job with this mod, I just played it...some good ideas here. I was wondering if you plan to further differentiate between lesser civs and city states, in terms of gameplay. (sorry if it's already mentioned, I didn't follow all this thread)

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Thanks. And yes, the plan is to make them a separate level. Txurce called them quasi-vassal states and that's probably very close to what I intend.

For cosmetic differentiation I want to change their city banners so that on the left-hand side instead of the generic city-state icon, there is their country's flag. (I managed that, but by overwriting the source files and I actually want to avoid that.) And then I also want to change their border lines to include a gradient, like the major civs, in the colour of their current ally, if they have one, so they really show as a part of that civ.
As for content, I had thought of this, basically they become CSes to beneficially loan stuff from. The problem is that the AI wouldn't be able to handle it for now. It's also maybe not the best or only way they could be used. Maybe I'll think of something else, or maybe someone else will.

Iceco said:

The production bonus probably is the least exciting. I just checked what the overall effect is and it amounts to about 1 high-cost building or 2 low-cost ones (costs scale per era, so does the bonus) per 30 turns, spread over all cities. Is that a good bonus or not?

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I'm not sure, since it wouldn't be a normal bonus, due to the scarcity factor. Especially given the scarcity, I'd much rather have maritimes and cultural CS. The reason for this is that food and culture help your entire game. So does gold, which is why I like the idea of Commercials. My basic thought is that you are offering too many choices that I don't particularly want, at the expense of what I do. Since the point of CS is to help you along, maybe the question to ask is what you would rather have in the basic situations.

Production helps your entire game too, but I think it just doesn't appeal to people. And that's a problem too. What if they gave a maintenance-free worker? That would be a more tactile bonus.
You could either have it replace the bonus and have it scale to 2 on ally status, or complement a diminished bonus and stay at 1 worker.

The only trait everyone wants at all times is Maritime (and of mine maybe Commercial and Intellectual), all others are situational. In my opinion the city-states around you should shape your strategy, rather than just be the all-round bonuses you count on having anyway. Lined with 3 Cultural CSes? You may have picked Khan, but perhaps re-evaluate your strategy. Diplomatic CSes all around? Become a city-state befriender. Progressive CSes? Boost your capital or direct the GP bonus (is given to the GP with highest current progress) and heavily specialise cities.

I like the diplomatic city-state icon a lot...I just can't...figure...out...why...

I intend to try this out this weekend, Iceco. I think this could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship.

On a more important note, one thing I am considering for CSD (that might help you) is to create a new 'great person' that is a Great Diplomat. Perhaps diplomatic CSs could spawn these guys?

If only I could figure out a way to use SQL to change the XML value for Great Merchant trade missions during a game of civ....

G

I've been thinking about this for a while... fundamentally, citystates are basically to specialize our empire by enhancing particular aspects of the game. I think the most focused approach might be six traits:

• Food
• Units
• Culture
• Happiness
• Great people
• Experience (per turn to existing units, and a bonus to new units)

Food is highly desirable for a simple reason... it gives the effect of production, gold, and science too. More population means more of all these.

Providing the individual yields separately might be a bit redundant. In particular, a gold-providing citystate is either always-get (if return is better than investment) or never-get (if the return is less than investment). In Civ5 gold=production so production is the same way, and science comes from population, which is provided by food.

Culture and units are not dependent on population (except culture with Museums in TBC). Happiness, great people, and experience are similar, so those might be good traits.

Gazebo said:

I like the diplomatic city-state icon a lot...I just can't...figure...out...why...

I intend to try this out this weekend, Iceco. I think this could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship.

On a more important note, one thing I am considering for CSD (that might help you) is to create a new 'great person' that is a Great Diplomat. Perhaps diplomatic CSs could spawn these guys?

If only I could figure out a way to use SQL to change the XML value for Great Merchant trade missions during a game of civ....

G

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I don't think you can. The only thing you could hope for is manually applying the bonus to the city-state, with a lua function called when using the Great Diplomat. I don't know if such an effect is all that exciting though. It would just be a "super diplo" unit, not that much distinguished from the normal diplos and certainly not on par with the other great persons.
And yes, hopefully we can make city-states as awesome as they should be.

Thalassicus said:

I've been thinking about this for a while... fundamentally, citystates are basically to specialize our empire by enhancing particular aspects of the game. I think the most focused approach might be six traits:

• Food
• Units
• Culture
• Happiness
• Great people
• Experience (per turn to existing units, and a bonus to new units)

Food is highly desirable for a simple reason... it gives the effect of production, gold, and science too. More population means more of all these.

Providing the individual yields separately might be a bit redundant. In particular, a gold-providing citystate is either always-get (if return is better than investment) or never-get (if the return is less than investment). In Civ5 gold=production so production is the same way, and science comes from population, which is provided by food.

Culture and units are not dependent on population (except culture with Museums in TBC). Happiness, great people, and experience are similar, so those might be good traits.

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Reducing the number back to 6 seems like a necessary step.
However, I don't think an Experience trait would be a solid option, it seems like too much of a Unit trait's little brother. It'll also hard to justify its existence immersion-wise. I think a Diplomatic trait would be better.
Then we still have to address the superiority of the Maritime trait. Its effect is rooted deep into the system and because of that benefits everyone, at all time. The Cultured trait on the other hand only benefits those that focus on culture to some extend and the Militaristic trait only benefits you when you happen to need a new unit. Suggestions:

• Cultured:
  - The bonus is instead applied in the cities, so it influences border expansion as well.
• Militaristic:
  - The units it gives have a unique promotion (combat bonus, cost no maintenance, fight better if they are adjacent to other donated units)
  - They grant you a military advisor (modified Great General), which disappears again after losing friends status. (On Ally status, it could have a better effect.)
  - An experience bonus, flat or perhaps to units adjacent to the military advisor? (Maybe AI won't handle the latter well.)
• Happiness:
  - Already influences golden ages, so it's pretty decent.
  - Perhaps added bonuses during golden ages though?
• Great People:
  - If the bonus is weighed correctly, this is strong enough. Though through andom chance of GP or contribution to the creation pool?
• Diplomatic:
  - Slow influence degradation
  - It would also be nice if it could raise your reputation with major civs. (And/or lower someone else's if he declares on you, so there is also an added effect if the human player declares on a diplo CS ally.)

I think there are a number of practical concerns though. Some mechanics would probably require DLL.
Ans when we have DLL access you can also for example make a connection between you and the CS provide you with gold too (and have the AI know this).

Iceco said:

Production helps your entire game too, but I think it just doesn't appeal to people. And that's a problem too. What if they gave a maintenance-free worker? That would be a more tactile bonus.
You could either have it replace the bonus and have it scale to 2 on ally status, or complement a diminished bonus and stay at 1 worker.

The only trait everyone wants at all times is Maritime (and of mine maybe Commercial and Intellectual), all others are situational. In my opinion the city-states around you should shape your strategy, rather than just be the all-round bonuses you count on having anyway. Lined with 3 Cultural CSes? You may have picked Khan, but perhaps re-evaluate your strategy. Diplomatic CSes all around? Become a city-state befriender. Progressive CSes? Boost your capital or direct the GP bonus (is given to the GP with highest current progress) and heavily specialise cities.

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Your second paragraph does a great job of spelling out your intent. I intepret it as a system that works hand in glove with CSD. With that mod there is tremendous competition for CS, and proximity makes a big difference. In that scenario, having a variety of CS would lead to varying, more interesting games.

Having said that, I’m not sure why you want quite so many types of CS. As you noted, most people want food and culture, and of yours would want Commercial and Intellectual. There’s an argument for leaving it at that, or adding a smaller number. But again, maximal variety works much better in tandem with CSD

On a side note, a maintenance-free worker doesn’t do much for me. If I didn’t want the luxury in question, I’d probably pass.

Cultured:
- The bonus is instead applied in the cities, so it influences border expansion as well.

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I've actually done this in my current internal (unreleased) v7.1 alpha of TBC. Both cultural and maritime citystates distribute food in the same manner, and the border expansion is very useful for expansive players. It's based off that making-yields-generic thing I talked with you about earlier. I think these changes to maritime and cultural make them equally valuable.

I feel giving units and experience are two very distinct things: quality vs quantity. I agree they could be combined, but it's still possible to have one citystate focused on army-building and another for army-training.

I like the idea of Militaristic units receiving special promotions. I've been thinking about giving citystates in TBC the same terrain-specific promotion advantages barbarians have, could be tied in with that.

I think happiness and great people citystates are relatively straightforward and good ideas to pursue in your mod.

A diplomatic citystate seems like a decent idea for your mood. Its value improves based on how many citystates we already have, so it's not the same problem as a gold citystate (always-useful / never-useful).

omg - you actually pulled that one off, Iceco! Superb workarounds on that tricky header, btw.

Congrats & welcome to LeoPaRd integration as a proper re-balancing Mod in its own right!
Icon?

Iceco said:

And yes, hopefully we can make city-states as awesome as they should be.

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Manhattan Island, UN - hint.

The traits have never and still won't work for me. As I ally a CS, the trait wipes off the diplomacy screen and I don't receive any bonus.

at Gazebo
The diplo GP is probably better fit if we can also have diplo specialists.

at Txurce
What do you think if what I discussed in my last post with Thalassicus? It reduces the number back to 6 traits. Not those you've been advocating, but I think it does a good job of making each one unique enough.

at Thalassicus
Yes, I remember the generic yield thing and am excited to see it implemented with the cultural city-states.

I don't think a terrain promotion would suit them well. Barbarians are savages that raid the surroundings from their chosen biotope, while the s are small nations that cultivate their surroundings. I am more in favour of stressing their foreign descent (for gifted units). Making them maintenance free would possibly be overpowered, but for example an adjacency bonus between gifted units could work, if that doesn't trivialise the French musketeers. It could also be their own special promotion, which I imagine would help them defend their small plot of land.
Lending you a general/tactician that works like a weaker great general, but also gives a certain amount of XP distributed over the units within a radius of 1 could work. You could make the latter only activate if the player told the to 'do not gift units', so he can toggle between more units and more experience.
Alternatively hostile military could give units, while Neutral(?) ones would give experience and the Irrational ones would randomly pick one of the two. I don't know how to extrapolate this functionality to the other traits though.

at Zyxpsylon
Yes, quite happy I got the new traits in. In the end it was quite easy. Apart from the UI support, which still isn't complete.
As for an icon, I don't really know. Maybe the same I used for the tops? (Attached the file I used for it.)
And Manhattan will only really be of use when we can tackle the diplo victory itself.

at black213
The bonuses work for me. Maybe the lack of UI support is what confuses you. The name for the trait will not show up in the DiploList or DiploRelationships, only in the DiploPopup. I could easily include that UI support, but it would mean overwriting source files, which I want to avoid so I don't overwrite possible changes made to those files by other mods, changes that could be more functional than this purely cosmetic one.
The bonus also doesn't show up in the TopPanel, so for example it won't show the gold you'll receive from a commercial city-state. Same reason as above.
If you compare what the game says you'll get with what you'll actually get, you'll see it's more, which are the new traits at work.

Iceco said:

at Txurce
What do you think if what I discussed in my last post with Thalassicus? It reduces the number back to 6 traits. Not those you've been advocating, but I think it does a good job of making each one unique enough.

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Reducing the total to 6 makes the project much more feasible within a total of 16, giving you 2 or 3 of each instead of 5 or 6. It may also be worth considering having more of one type and less of another. I say this because Thal does a nice job of explaining why Maritimes will almost always be supreme, and if there are significantly less Maritimes, you should consider how a food fight over them will affect the game.

Whether Militaristic is buffed or not, that means 3 new CS types. I agree that Commercial is redundant. In my mind so is Diplomatic, since it equals gold (or its equivalent in CSD). Happiness and GP make sense from varying perspectives, and are the two additions I favor most.

Iceco said:

at black213
The bonuses work for me. Maybe the lack of UI support is what confuses you. The name for the trait will not show up in the DiploList or DiploRelationships, only in the DiploPopup. I could easily include that UI support, but it would mean overwriting source files, which I want to avoid so I don't overwrite possible changes made to those files by other mods, changes that could be more functional than this purely cosmetic one.
The bonus also doesn't show up in the TopPanel, so for example it won't show the gold you'll receive from a commercial city-state. Same reason as above.
If you compare what the game says you'll get with what you'll actually get, you'll see it's more, which are the new traits at work.

Click to expand...

I did a before/after comparing after allying a Commercial CS. I didn't see any change in my gold in-come.

Iceco said:

Maybe the same I used for the tops? (Attached the file I used for it.)
And Manhattan will only really be of use when we can tackle the diplo victory itself.

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-- Makes sense, i'll fiddle a bit with the "Idea" and create somethin' for you.
-- Would it ever!

Txurce said:

Reducing the total to 6 makes the project much more feasible within a total of 16, giving you 2 or 3 of each instead of 5 or 6. It may also be worth considering having more of one type and less of another. I say this because Thal does a nice job of explaining why Maritimes will almost always be supreme, and if there are significantly less Maritimes, you should consider how a food fight over them will affect the game.

Whether Militaristic is buffed or not, that means 3 new CS types. I agree that Commercial is redundant. In my mind so is Diplomatic, since it equals gold (or its equivalent in CSD). Happiness and GP make sense from varying perspectives, and are the two additions I favor most.

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I won't have a higher amount of maritime city-states. The other traits should be brought up to par with them instead.
As for the diplomatic trait. Yes, it's the least solid one for now, but in my opinion there is no other (unused) option that can match it. When we have DLL access it can then be improved to play a big role in an improved diplo victory and/or raise your disposition with other civs, which would be a very strong effect.

black213 said:

I did a before/after comparing after allying a Commercial CS. I didn't see any change in my gold in-come.

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Wait, is the problem that there is no change in effect between friends and ally status or just no bonus at all?

In my game the allied commercial city-state gives the correct bonus, unless by some coincidence one of the other mods I'm using is applying an exact same bonus.
I also get production and science bonuses, I haven't checked if the numbers correspond to the ally bonus though.
Make sure you have the latest version (v.11), have deleted older versions and cleared the cache.

Zyxpsilon said:

-- Makes sense, i'll fiddle a bit with the "Idea" and create somethin' for you.
-- Would it ever!

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Thanks!

Iceco said:

Wait, is the problem that there is no change in effect between friends and ally status or just no bonus at all?

In my game the allied commercial city-state gives the correct bonus, unless by some coincidence one of the other mods I'm using is applying an exact same bonus.
I also get production and science bonuses, I haven't checked if the numbers correspond to the ally bonus though.
Make sure you have the latest version (v.11), have deleted older versions and cleared the cache.

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The problem is that I don't get any bonus at all.