[FULL] Putmalk's Ancient World Discussion Thread

Played it now and I like it. Two things that bug me however:

1) I think you should be able to upgrade warriors to axemen, just to give them some small boost in case your DoWed early and don't have iron available yet.

2) That brings me to another thing: there's no middle or late game unit that doesn't need strategic resources (only ranged units), such as powder units or mech infantry in vanilla. I know it may be historically inauthentic, but for the sake of game play, there should be some alternative - maybe stronger spearmen or sth like that. I've played your Mesopotamia scenario as Lydia and on the whole of Minor Asia is only one spot with 4 iron (rather near to the Hittite capital) and none of the four city states can support me with some.

3) Faster decaying influence for other civs comes too easy - I got spammed with "changed city state influence". Right now, influence decays at a 1.8 rate with non-hostile city states.

mutant-enemy said:

Played it now and I like it. Two things that bug me however:

1) I think you should be able to upgrade warriors to axemen, just to give them some small boost in case your DoWed early and don't have iron available yet.

2) That brings me to another thing: there's no middle or late game unit that doesn't need strategic resources (only ranged units), such as powder units or mech infantry in vanilla. I know it may be historically inauthentic, but for the sake of game play, there should be some alternative - maybe stronger spearmen or sth like that. I've played your Mesopotamia scenario as Lydia and on the whole of Minor Asia is only one spot with 4 iron (rather near to the Hittite capital) and none of the four city states can support me with some.

3) Faster decaying influence for other civs comes too easy - I got spammed with "changed city state influence". Right now, influence decays at a 1.8 rate with non-hostile city states.

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1. Good idea, but Axeman are meant to be a "flavored" unit like the Spearman are. Allowing Warriors to upgrade to Axeman may make Axeman already more powerful than Spearman (I mean Axeman are really good as it is. I'll run some tests and see how it plays out). Why not try to build an archer instead if you're DoW'd?

2. Heavy Spearman act as the middle-to-late unit that doesn't require resources. I figure by late game you should be able to snag an iron resource from some source (a city-state, or conquest?). Plus I didn't want to see Quinqueremes, Helepolis, and Elites spammed to high hell. Try Clibanarii as an alternative to Iron-based units. An army based off of Horseman, Horse Archers, Clibanarii and Heavy Spearman can take down cities, but it might not be as effective.

Also, Mesopotamia has random resources enabled. I can't control what the resource spread is (if I did, the scenario would be too predictable).

3. I did not anticipate this. I'll check my policy balance.

Gracias para el feedback, senor.

Preview of Ancient Greece:

Lots of hills and a heavy focus on naval combat. Take control of the seas and expand your empire onto the tiny islands to win over your foes on this map.

Why not try to build an archer instead if you're DoW'd?

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Good idea of course, but it's cheaper to upgrade warriors. If you go for a swordman start it's a real blow if you have 4-5 cities without one iron source. ^^

Also, Mesopotamia has random resources enabled. I can't control what the resource spread is (if I did, the scenario would be too predictable).

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It's ok then, I didn't know this.

Gracias para el feedback, senor.

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De nada.

PS: Great maps!

PPS: Science progress seems reasonable to me. I'm at ~turn 220 and I've focused on science (not excessively though) and am slowly coming to the end of the tech tree.

sorry i wrote a wrong thing because i was just thinking of putting the japanese trait for greece so i had it in mind.sorry

also i saw ur scenario of greek land and if u tell me what exacly age it will begin i think i can find all (at leasst the greek tribes) that leaved there

PAVLOS_GR300 said:

sorry i wrote a wrong thing because i was just thinking of putting the japanese trait for greece so i had it in mind.sorry

also i saw ur scenario of greek land and if u tell me what exacly age it will begin i think i can find all (at leasst the greek tribes) that leaved there

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It's not a scenario I'm doing. I'm actually making random maps (similar to Firaxis's DLC) that will have random resources and you can play random maps on. It's a good way to make you feel like you're playing in the ancient world, but actually playing on a random map.

Hell, maybe I'll make a scenario based off of these maps.

All random maps start at 4000 BC. Currently, the Standard Game Speed is configured correctly to where the game will last 500 turns and end at 1000 AD.

These maps will be released alongside some special additional (and optional) content. Reveal coming soon!

kk.do u plan to make more civs?like normands?or spartans
the map is very nice.i have made something similar myself but takes full minor asia.most balkans and north palaistine but i think urs is better

3:40 AM as I'm typing this. Forgive any spelling mistakes. >.<

I've hinted in earlier posts that I was going to be releasing something soon. Well, I've been working hard on it in between a bunch of essays as finals draw closer for my first semester. And now I'm ready to share what it was.

It's a Civilization and Map Pack!

That's right. 2 new civs and 4 new maps, and no DLC is required to play it! It's a completely optional add-on that requires no messing around with files in order to play.

New Civilizations
Celts (thanks to sukritact for his awesome map and DOM artwork!)
Leader: Brennus
Unique Ability: Move faster in Hills, all melee units deal 25% more damage to Wounded Units.
Unique Unit: Headhunter

• Replaces Swordsman
• 12 Strength
• Starts with Woodsman and Drill 1 promotions
• Requires Iron
• Can Build Hill Forts

Unique Improvement: Hill Fort

• Available at Construction
• +50% Tile Defense
• +1 Tile Production
• Can only be built on Hills

Mycenaeans (thanks to ambrox62 and Numitor for permission to use!)
Unique Ability: 25% more Food and Culture from City-States. All non-mounted land units deal 25% more damage to Cities.
Unique Unit: Heqetai

• Replaces Spearman
• 7 Strength
• +25% Defense Against Ranged Attacks

Unique Building: Cyclopean Walls

• Replaces Walls
• +2 Culture
• 4 Defense

New Maps
Four new random maps, playable with any civilization!

• Putmalk's France - Navigate your way through the forests of France, battling it out on mostly flat terrain. Not much navy required, as the map is dominated by grassland tiles.
• Putmalk's Greece - Take control of the Aegean Sea and establish naval dominance early to establish settlements on the tiny islands that litter most of this map. The mainland is filled with tons of hill tiles, making navigation difficult (if you're not playing as the Celts) but rewarding if you're the productive type.
• Putmalk's Mediterranean - A massive inland sea occupies more than half of this map. It's large size isolates civilizations and gives you plenty of room to expand, but also exposes you to Barbarian invasions. Careful planning and a strong navy is paramount to success, or your civilization will crumble under the might of more powerful nations. Build a strong navy to support your troops when attacking coastal cities, which should be everywhere.
• Putmalk's Mesopotamia* - Returning from Putmalk's Mesopotamia, conquer these harsh deserts and barren terrain with the civilization of your choice. These lands consist mostly of flatlands near the fertile crescent and hills near Anatolia, so strategy is important in order to ensure the advantage at part of the map.

* - This is the Mesopotamian scenario map, without the scenario. It's a random map.

Preview screenshots coming soon!

Release of this pack will be SoonTM. Until then, hope you're enjoying the mod, and thank you for all your feedback and comments! It really keeps me going!

Note! This pack is not compatible with the base version of Civilization V! It must be played with Putmalk's Ancient World (non-DLC or DLC fine)! You can convert this mod into a Civilization V compatible version with a few tweaks to unit upgrades, but this is designed to be balanced with Ancient World and not vanilla! You have been warned!

Quick feedback

- The Oplite seems too overpowered in the age it comes available. Strength 10 when everything is strength 5 to 7 is really too much.
- The Legion becomes available at one but the last tech row. Needless to say how useless this trait is for the Romans. Their legions would march through most of the known world quite before the time in which you have placed them. I suggest moving them to Swordsman replacement.
- Very well done with the social policies. They seem balanced and well thought. One minor glitch: in the global politics screen the new policies show up with the vanilla names.
- The AI is very aggressive (or, at least, quite more than in vanilla). I think you wanted this, so a well done in this case is due too.
- I think the installation of this mod is somewhat problematic and that's why you have not as much feedback as this mod deserves. For example after messing around with files for a coupla days I found that the start screen would display correctly only if I try it (won't display all the new civs traits and won't start correctly), then go back at browse mods and try again (in this case it will display all traits but the start screen won't read any text file). I have checked the files and it seems all right but still, this is the only mod that screws up like this. It might be connected with the LUA, of which I am not competent.

Putmalk said:

2. Heavy Spearman act as the middle-to-late unit that doesn't require resources. I figure by late game you should be able to snag an iron resource from some source (a city-state, or conquest?). Plus I didn't want to see Quinqueremes, Helepolis, and Elites spammed to high hell. Try Clibanarii as an alternative to Iron-based units. An army based off of Horseman, Horse Archers, Clibanarii and Heavy Spearman can take down cities, but it might not be as effective.

Click to expand...

You may want to remove the iron requirement from catapults then, but leave it on ballistas. It would be an improvement both from realism and balance POWs.

edit:
more feedback.
I also think that lumbermill come to late. By that time all forests will have been chopped down ^^ I'd make them available earlier and maybe improve them with engineering. Maybe available with Trade?

Wish I'd been keeping up with this more, it looks better than ever!

You should make the Greece map into a scenario (pre-set Greek City-States as playable civilizations)

onedreamer said:

Quick feedback

- The Oplite seems too overpowered in the age it comes available. Strength 10 when everything is strength 5 to 7 is really too much.

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i dont think they are ovepowered but i think they come to the point when they are less needed.i think they should come later so that greeks can catch up with the rest civs

Cannot wait for this to come out. the Celts have always been one of my favorite civs.

Screenshots of Variety Pack #1 (working name for the civ/map pack) down below.

Special thanks to Numitor, ambrox62, and sukritact for their help on the pack.

for the starting postition i have to say that they were in the european greece not the asian one.their capital was at peloponisus.they had cities in minor asia but their mainland was in south greece.at 1000bc other greeks from north(doriis)moved south so the mycineans moved to minor asia crete and cyprus.(also the myceneans had colonies in the whole europe

PAVLOS_GR300 said:

i dont think they are ovepowered but i think they come to the point when they are less needed.i think they should come later so that greeks can catch up with the rest civs

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can you elaborate a bit more as to how is strength 10 on a unit that requires no strategic resource, when everything else is strength 5-7, not overpowered?

onedreamer said:

can you elaborate a bit more as to how is strength 10 on a unit that requires no strategic resource, when everything else is strength 5-7, not overpowered?

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because as the gameplay is now the greeks later are outweight by the later units so the point is to rush.the reason it is 10 is because the other units are technologically too close(something that is historicaly inaccurate)

PAVLOS_GR300 said:

because as the gameplay is now the greeks later are outweight by the later units so the point is to rush.the reason it is 10 is because the other units are technologically too close(something that is historicaly inaccurate)

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1) the other units aren't technologically too close plus "they" (namely, it is only one: the swordsman) require a strategic resource so even when they can be built they will be limited in number, unlike hoplites which can be unlimited and that have from 50 to 80% more strength than any contemporary unit and that have no counter even in the subsequent tech group because a single unit type that can be built in limited numbers can't really be considered a counter.
2) I have played the Greeks and there is no "later" outweight since with the combination of Hoplites and possibly Companion Cavalry you have already won the game. Not to mention that later these units will upgrade to regular units so there is no outweight whatsoever.

I agree with onedreamer. It was a mistake on my part.

There will be many balance changes in the next patch.

I haven't posted the new civ/map pack yet because it's finals week and I want to get a full playthrough in with the new civs before I release.

...also because I'm updating my mod as we speak and I have to clean out bug problems, which limits testing abilities....

Here are some current plans for balance:

- Hoplite moved to Metal Casting, replaces Heavy Spearman. 13 strength.
- Legion moved to Iron Working, replaces Swordsman. 13 strength, 20% foreign lands bonus.
- Immortal moved to Metal Casting, replaces Heavy Spearman. 12 strength, heals at double rate.
- Axeman bonus reduced to 30%.
- Slinger ranged strength raised to 6. Moves twice as fast in Hills. 30% bonus vs. early units (Axeman, Warrior, Archer, Slinger, Spearman). 30% penalty vs. Mounted Units, late units (Heavy units, Swordsman, Peltast), naval units.

Essentially, Persia, Greece and Rome can become powerful at the same time. Greek Hoplites can stand up to Legions, but Rome is now geared to play on the offensive, so the legions triumph the Greeks in Greek lands. Immortals aren't as good as Legions or Hoplites, but the double health rate really makes them useful if you combine them with archers and swordsmen in combat. Plus their happiness bonuses make them great conquerors.

Also, this splits the game up into two real ages, with the old civilizations getting their unique units at Bronze Working and the "classical" civilizations getting their unique units in the Classical Era. It makes for some dynamic playstyles, and I like it this better.

Plus, Axeman now have a 9 strength vs. melee units, not 10 or 11 like it was before. Swordsman should have no problem stomping on them. But Swordsmen require a resource.

The Spearman replacements are a bit underwhelming right now. I'm working on making those units more interesting.

Thoughts?