Research Agreement questions

Hammer Rabbi

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Since the patch has fixed some RA issues I have a couple clarity questions.

I recently had a fizzled RA in my last game and I now realize it isnt a bug but it happens when you do something to anger who you had the agreement with. In this case Theodora denounced me 2 turns before the RA was to complete. I didnt steal a tech, I was going OCC and she didnt covet my lands yet, I generally didnt do anything to make here angry. Her friend definitions were typical: had an embassy, denounced the same leader, declaration of freindship, friends with an enemy (happened before our DoF--shouldnt break an RA amount i dont think). But the one thing i did do was send a missionary through her territory. I wasnt trying to convert her cities but to get to a CS on the other side. When my missionary hit her capital borders she insta-denounced me. 2 turns later the RA fizzled. No bonus, just my normal bpt that turn.

1) Is this from the patch? I know stealing techs, denouncements, etc can make them fizzle but other than the missionary none of my actions could be perceived against her. I didnt even ally a CS she was allies with or beat her to a wonder.
2) If it fizzles for me does it fizzle for her? What if I take an action like denounce her? Will that mean she also has a busted RA?
3) Can irrational Civs do this without provocation just to bust the RA? They used to do this by DoWing you but maybe the patch changed this.

As it is, I still dont want to take RAs but now it's only because I no longer understand the minutiae of the mechanics of an RA. Stuff like this will help me understand what and what not to do in games.

Thanks
 
The AI has things it gets mad at you over that it doesn't tell you about. Literally 10 minutes ago I found that out. So I am playing as Siam, only know one civ, Japan, and we are best of friends. As it turns out, Oda hates Monty. This is what transpires:
Turn 185: Renew DOF with Oda
Turn 186: Meet Montezuma, exchange embassies, trade Dyes for Wine
Turn 187: Denounced by Oda
Turn 188: Denounced by Monty and insulted by Oda
For tests sake, I reloaded and tried again.

Turn 185: Renew DOF with Oda
Turn 186: Meet Montezuma
Turn 187: Decline Embassy offer from Monty,
Turn 188: Denounce Monty, offered research agreement from Oda

Japan was obviously mad I traded with his enemy, Montezuma, but of course there is no visible modifier for this.
 
This is also something I noticed.

I think it's more to do with the G&K mechanics than the patch that was introduced right before. However, since those happened right together, it's easy to get the two confused.

My understanding is that the Research Agreement "fizzles" because in G&K a Declaration of Friendship is required for the RA (IIRC, not needed in Vanilla where it is still unlocked by Philosophy). Apparently, if the DoF gets broken, then the RA does not yield anything. I don't want to get into whether or not things *should* work this way, but that's the way it currently works.

If there is a war, or more commonly, if one of the civilizations "backstabs" their friend by denouncing them, this breaks the DoF and apparently leads to 0 output from the RA.

1. It's hard to say. There is a random component to the game (so if you reload and play things slightly differently, there will be different results). I've found that two common occurrences are proximity (if any of you have nearby cities, including if one of you just recently captured a nearby city) and relationships with other AI's (especially if one of you is on good terms with an AI that hates the other). This is often a cause of Friends suddenly hating you.

2. Unknown. I would hope that both sides get nothing. I guess the best way to figure this out is either to try it out in multi-player or slog through the source code.

3. I guess in theory, but there's often a lot you can do to stack the diplomacy modifiers in your favor and avoid this situation (but not always).

One thing that I have been curious about but haven't had to experiment with:

I know that the RA is broken by war, and fizzles from a backstab denouncement. I am extremely curious what happens if the DoF lapses normally (but you two are still on decent terms) before the RA triggers. Does it still yield 0 beakers? I would assume so but I haven't had the chance to try. Similarly, what happens if the DoF lapses for a few turns, but then you re-establish it before the RA triggers? Does that affect things?
 
I remember in a pre-Fall patch game AI would denounce me like the ONE TURN before the RA finishes. Hurts like a bish when that happens. I wonder if they're programmed to do it. :/

Also I'm pretty sure if a DoF ends normally you'd still get the RA. I forgot really since I've never gave them the chance to end it.
 
i can say that lapsed DoFs dont diminish RA amounts unless the patch changed that. My pre-patch RAs that weren't fizzles or huge buffs had many lapsed Dofs. I only remember this because I was paying more attention to them after learning there were RA bugs. But since the patch I havent signed many and looked as closely at them.
 
It's time to go to a 30-turn beaker buff rather than a 'prize' amount of beakers after 30 turns. Just makes more sense, and is more robust (i.e. if relations go sour you can end the cooperation, but you still benefited from the previous collaboration).
 
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