Our Rivals

Toch

Prince
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
329
Team leaders are choosen, so lets look at them so we now, what we are facing to.

Team 1: Elizabeth of England

Starting techs: Fishing Mining


Philosophical:)gp: rate increased 100 %.
Double production speed of University.)
Financial(+1 :commerce: on plots with at least 2 :commerce:)
UU: Red Coat (14 :strength: 1 :move:110:hammers: +25% vs. Mounted Units
+25% vs. Gunpowder Units)
UB: Stock Exchange (Bank +15% :gold:)

SANCTA (Team 3): Willem of the Netherlands
Starting techs: Fishing, Agriculture

Financial (+1 :commerce: on plots with at least 2 :commerce:)
Creative (+2 :culture: per city. Double production speed of Library, Theater, and Colosseum.)
UU: East Indiaman ((Galleon)6 :strength: 4 :move:80:hammers: Can explore rival territory w/o declaring war
Cargo space: 4 )
UB:Dike (Levee Water tiles: +1:hammers:, River tiles: +1 :hammers:

Team 4: Joao of Portugal
Starting techs:Fishing Mining

Expansive +2:health: per city.
Double production speed of Granary and Harbor.
+25% worker production
Imperialistic +100% Great General emergence
50% faster production of settlers
UU: Carrack ((caravel)3 :strength: 3 :move: 60:hammers: Cargo Space: 2 (can carry any troops, spy, or great people)
Can explore rival territory w/o triggering war
UB: Feitoria (Customs House +50% intercontinental trade route yield
Water tiles: +1 :commerce:)
Requires Harbor

Team 5: Pacal II of the Mayans
Starting techs: Mysticism Mining


Financial(+1 :commerce: on plots with at least 2 :commerce:)
Expansive+2:health: per city.
Double production speed of Granary and Harbor.
+25% worker production
UU:Holkan ((pikeman)4 :strength: 1 :move: 35:hammers: Immune to first strikes
+50% vs. Mounted Units
UB:Ball Court Colosseum + :)per 20%:culture: rate aditional +3 :)Double production speed for Creative leaders

EDITED
 
Out of all of the leader picks, Team 4's was the only one that I was surprised at. Teams 1, 3 and 5 all chose leaders that I consider fairly strong for multiplayer games. On the other hand, Team 4's choice is really a bit of a dubious wildcard. (Especially so considering that I know quite a few of the players on that team, and they're all pretty experienced with multiplayer games.)

I find it interesting that Team 4 picked the only non-Financial leader. I wonder how that will work out for them as the game progresses. Looking at it from our point of view, the fact that 4/5 teams are Financial means that our Financial trait will not be quite as powerful as it might otherwise have been. On the other hand, at least we're not in the position of being stuck with the only non-Financial leader. ;)

Of course, the main thing with Team 4 is that we will have to be very wary of an early naval invasion. Aside from that though, I think they'll be at a disadvantage unless they can get themselves into a good technological alliance with one of the other teams.

The other thing I found of interest is that Team 5 is the only team that will start with Mysticism, so they'll get a free shot at the early religions if they want them. (By the way Toch, you could edit your post to include the starting techs for each civ if you wanted. :) )

EDIT: It's also interesting that only 2/5 teams have early UU's, and one of them is us. This means that as long as we avoid Team 5 and their Holkans, our Immortals could have a field day in the ancient ages. :)
 
I was also surprised at team 4, since their leader has neither strong traits for multiplayer nor great unique unit and unique building.

I don't think we need to worry about an early naval invasion if we place defenders in our coastal cities (do you found many coastal cities in multiplayer, I'm not sure?) because the resources they waste on carracks we can spend on more defenders. And carracks take a while to get to where they need to, especially considering this is a standard map made for 7 civs.

If anything, I'd worry about team 3 having a naval invasion.
 
I was also surprised at team 4, since their leader has neither strong traits for multiplayer nor great unique unit and unique building.
Indeed. They'll have faster Settlers and Workers, but not much else to support them. They only have one good cheap building (the Granary), no economic bonuses until the late game Feitoria (which is like a very nerfed version of Financial or having a tiny late-game Colossus, neither of which is very appealing), and no real military bonuses (with a relatively weak and very situational UU). Like I said in an earlier thread, Joao II can expand quickly but can't reap the benefits from his empire as effectively as other leaders. He's certainly a very average, and quite possibly below average, choice for a multiplayer game (or even single player, for that matter).

I don't think we need to worry about an early naval invasion if we place defenders in our coastal cities (do you found many coastal cities in multiplayer, I'm not sure?)...
Absolutely, you should found coastal cities in multiplayer! There's no point avoiding building coastal cities just because you're scared of a naval invasion 150-200 turns down the line. Besides, with more coastal cities you can build more naval units, to more effectively counter any later naval invasions. ;)

...because the resources they waste on carracks we can spend on more defenders. And carracks take a while to get to where they need to, especially considering this is a standard map made for 7 civs.
Very true. Carracks probably won't be all that scary, as long as we have decent defences and a good naval scouting force.

If anything, I'd worry about team 3 having a naval invasion.
Yeah, we'll have to be extremely cautious about that. Although luckily we'll have plenty of game time before they reach Astronomy. Ideally, we (or someone else) should probably make some attempt to "disable" Team 3 in the earlier game, before they get a chance to take to the seas. ;)

By the way Toch, I've noticed a couple of errors in your post:
- Carrack can transport ANY troops, not just missionaries/spies/etc
- Ball Court has +3 happiness in addition to the +1 happiness per 20% culture
 
The leader I'm most cautious of is Willem. That guy is a freakin' powerhouse once we get into the steam power era... free Maoi statues in every city! If this map has a decent amount of water it'd be really hard to outproduce him once the game gets that far.

Plus I'm pretty sure Team 3 got most of the experienced users. Might be best to kill/cripple them somewhat early (medieval or renaissance) if given the chance, have to see how that plays out.

Elizabeth's strong too, how much of a pain are redcoats usually? I don't think I've ever actually fought them, English AIs are usually peaceful or defensive.


One thing I like is no Industrious leaders. Outside of special resources, an even playing field there.
 
The leader I'm most cautious of is Willem. That guy is a freakin' powerhouse once we get into the steam power era... free Maoi statues in every city! If this map has a decent amount of water it'd be really hard to outproduce him once the game gets that far.
Are Dikes limited to cities on rivers, or are they available for all cities? Strangely enough, I don't think I've played that far in a game with the Dutch myself yet, so I don't actually know.

Plus I'm pretty sure Team 3 got most of the experienced users. Might be best to kill/cripple them somewhat early (medieval or renaissance) if given the chance, have to see how that plays out.
Indeed, that sounds like a plan. ;)

Elizabeth's strong too, how much of a pain are redcoats usually? I don't think I've ever actually fought them, English AIs are usually peaceful or defensive.
I only realized today that Redcoats have been nerfed a bit from when I last checked... they used to be 16 strength, now they are 14 strength with +25% vs Gunpowder units (basically just a Rifleman with Pinch). So obviously I haven't played with or against England in the industrial era recently either. :lol:

With Grenadiers also nerfed (only +50% when attacking Riflemen), it seems that Redcoats are not quite as powerful as I originally thought them to be. They'd give a nice little bonus in the industrial era of course, but not a hugely significant one. So I think that we should probably worry more about Willem than about Elizabeth. ;)

One thing I like is no Industrious leaders. Outside of special resources, an even playing field there.
Indeed, that's quite nice. Counting up all of the traits:

Financial - 4
Expansive - 2
Organized - 1
Creative - 1
Philosophical - 1
Imperialistic - 1
Charismatic - 0
Aggressive - 0
Protective - 0
Spiritual - 0
Industrious - 0

So aside from Financial, the teams have mostly gone for very different traits. Nobody has Industrious (as mentioned before); also, nobody has Spiritual (so everyone is on an even footing with anarchy); and nobody has any of the three military traits, Aggressive/Protective/Charismatic (so we're all on an even footing with regards to XP and initial unit promotions).

Two teams will be producing their Workers and Granaries faster - a slight disadvantage to the rest of us. Team 1 (England) has the monopoly on Philosophical, so should easily be the leader in Great People for this game. (Perhaps they will go for a bulbing strategy for their research.) Team 3 has the monopoly on Creative, so their culture will expand to grab slightly more land earlier on. This shouldn't be too much of an issue for the rest of us, since teams should be spread out on the map - thus early expanding culture won't be as much of an annoyance as it is in close quarters. The most notable cheap building for them is the Library, so we can probably expect them to research Writing early and get a slight early edge in research. Team 4 has the monopoly on Imperialistic, so we can probably expect them to expand a little faster with those cheap Settlers.

Most interestingly though, we have the monopoly on Organized. This means that our civ will be unique in being able to build really quick Lighthouses and Courthouses. Obviously Code of Laws will be a prime early tech for us to aim for - there might be the possibility of an Oracle gambit for that tech if the situation is right. With early Courthouses and cheaper civics maintenance, we will be in the unique position of being able to expand and claim significantly more land than the other teams without crippling our research. This is definitely a good thing for us. :)
 
Ok techs added, and for those mistakes i have taken informations from civiliopedia here on civfanataics, so mistake is there.
 
Ok techs added, and for those mistakes i have taken informations from civiliopedia here on civfanataics, so mistake is there.
Ah, I see.

By the way, Elizabeth has Fishing/Mining, not Mysticism/Mining. ;)
 
Dikes can go on any city directly touching a river, the coast, or a fresh water pond. Extremely powerful. Plus there's gonna be that Maoi+Dike city with two hammers per water tile, yikes!

Also I'd count Imperialistic amoung the military traits, the settlers are great but do not underestimate extra great generals! Fighting a few wars can easily get enough (four) to attach onto a single city for instant Level 4 units, not even counting Vassalage or Theocracy. Those would be an army of City Raider III cannons... wouldn't that be fun.
 
I thought dikes could go on any city as long as they had at least 1 riverside tile or 1 water tile. Regardless, we should probably eliminate the threat before it can begin.

No I did a test this morning, they got to be bordering rivers or coast to use them, one or the other. I didn't test freshwater lakes like that though, so maybe those can be anywhere in the BFC.
 
I think Feitoria has +100% foreign trade route yield (does not had to be intercontinental trade route) and water tiles: +1 commerce.
 
No I did a test this morning, they got to be bordering rivers or coast to use them, one or the other. I didn't test freshwater lakes like that though, so maybe those can be anywhere in the BFC.
No, I just tested it: cities must be bordering the freshwater lakes to build Dikes. But still - yikes! I'd never realised that Dikes were that powerful. It doesn't say in the Civilopedia that you can not only build them on rivers, but also on any coast, and even on lakes! Seems a bit overpowered. :eek: And then you have the Moai + Dike city. And imagine the Netherlands in a late game golden age - extra hammers on almost every single tile!

We definitely need to consider taking out the Netherlands before the industrial age then, since otherwise they might just become a runaway civ.

Also I'd count Imperialistic amoung the military traits, the settlers are great but do not underestimate extra great generals! Fighting a few wars can easily get enough (four) to attach onto a single city for instant Level 4 units, not even counting Vassalage or Theocracy. Those would be an army of City Raider III cannons... wouldn't that be fun.
True, I'd forgotten about Imperialistic having the edge on Great Generals.

I think Feitoria has +100% foreign trade route yield (does not had to be intercontinental trade route) and water tiles: +1 commerce.
According to the Civilopedia, both the Feitoria and Customs House have +100% foreign trade route yield. So there doesn't appear to be any difference between the two there. Of course, it's more than possible that the Civilopedia is wrong (heck, it's happened often enough before ;) ).
 
Who is most likely to rush? Does anyone know tendancies of the players on other teams?
 
Who is most likely to rush? Does anyone know tendancies of the players on other teams?
Probably no-one, since the map is so large. I guess if anyone is most likely to rush, we are, since we (should) have Immortals. :lol:

Anyway, the tendencies of individual players on a team don't matter, it's the team as a whole that counts. One player might push for an early rush, but the rest of the team will probably outvote him. Early rushes are just not economical when there's a large distance between neighbours such as on this map. :)
 
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