Trading Reputation

Excellent and very helpful article! I was looking for a detailed explanation of this since long ago, but must have missed it first.

Whomp said:

If our boat is in the AI's territory to start a turn and you move it out, declare and move it back in is that ok?

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Not completly sure, but I think I have done that without ruining my reputation.Troop position in the moment of the declaration of war matters.

Just to get one thing absolutely straight: You say that having troops in an AI's territory and then declaring war causes a rep hit. It is the moment you declare war that is interesting, right? Say I don't have any troops in his territory, declare war, and start pouring units into his territory in the same turn - is that OK?

@The Fjonis--Yes that's ok to do.

I wasn't sure if you're already in AI territory, move out, declare and then move back in if there's a rep hit. My impression is since you were out of AI territory when you declared you would not get the rep hit.

What if you brake a deal what A who is in war with B and they sign peace later, will your rep with B be broken? Or, similary, If A and B don't have conact and later get to know each other will A "tell" B about your bad behaviour?

This is really really helpful but I'm struggling with some of the finer detail.

microbe said:

* You pay per-turn (resources, gpt, RoP) goods for hard goods (techs or lump sum gold) from the AI.

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Can you confirm the definition of hard goods includes workers, maps, cities and communications ie anything that does not expire in 20 turns?

As you said under Peace Treaty Reputation, if you are paying per-turn for a peace treaty then that is also a "rep-risky deal". Shouldn't that be explicitly included in the first definition as a peace treaty is arguably not "hard goods" as it can be renegotiated in 20 turns.

Cases that do not trash your rep.....

There are certain cases that a prematurely terminated gpt deal does not affect your rep.

2. The deal involves an MA and the target AI is destroyed

If you have a gpt deal with A in which you have MA against B. If B is destroyed before the 20-turn period expires, the deal ends immediately but your rep isn't affected. It's often (ab)used by players to sign an MA when the target AI is about to die, and get money back as soon as the AI is destroyed.

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Does it matter what else is included in the deal on either side, whether gpt or "hard goods"? Would you agree that as long as you include a MA in the deal and the target is eliminated the other gpt trades stop executing without a rep hit to either the player or AI A as neither side can execute the trade without B in the game.

3. The AI you are paying gpt is destroyed
It doesn't include the case if you are paying resources.

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Do I understand correctly that if you are paying resources to a civ that is destroyed you get a rep hit.

There is an essential piece of information missing in this article, that I found out the hard way. This may only apply to PTW and not Conquests, but it has to be mentioned to warn anyone else who reads this guide.

My friend and I were playing an SG where reputation was essential, as no self research was allowed, and there was a limit on gold in the treasury (You can read our turnlog here, http://unhelpful.info/test/).

However, when I got the game back in 750 AD, our reputation was broken! We re-examined everything, and we had strictly followed the guidelines set out in Microbe's article. Yet our reputation was broken.

After much investigation, we determined the cause:
- Once you have warred with a civilization, peace is dealt with as a "deal" from then on, in the Active Trades, the Peace Treaty (16) will always have turns left on it
- Even if this Peace Treaty deal is straight-up, and includes nothing else, if war is declared while there is still a number left in the Active trades box, your reputation will be broken!

Another important item left out:
- Your reputation is restored with civilizations that can no longer contact the civilization you offended
- If you get someone to declare war against the civilization that you offended, the new warring civ will now honor gpt trades with you
- This should also apply when you eliminate the civ you offended, so there is hope to restoring reputation.

The guide is otherwise great, but its unfortunate that this omission screwed up our game.

I had no idea that you could actually gain rep back by crushing another Civ like that. Ill have to take a close look it seems to me no matter what you do the AI will be Anoyed with you about something.

I'm quite sure that eliminating a civ does not fix your reputation. Your rep is only fixed with a civ is that civ is at war with the civ you screwed. Once that civ is eliminated, no one is at war with them, so everyone will hold you accountable for your dealbreaking.

Indeed.

I just tested this, and as soon as I eliminated that civ, everyone went back to treating me with broken reputation. In fact, its even worse. Prior to broken reputation, I could get 16 gold for 1 gpt. With broken reputation, but prior to eliminating the civ, I could get 3 gold for 1 gpt. Now I can only get 2 gold for 1 gpt (great deal!).

So if your reputation is broken, you can artifically recover it by getting all nations to go to war with the civ you offended. But, if that civ is ever eliminated, everyone will go back to treating you with broken reputation. I even tested the case where everyone who knows the civ is at war with them, yet as soon as they are eliminated, your reputation is broken again.

It seems very inconsistent that in one case (being at war), not being able to communicate with a civ means reputation is forgiven, but in another case (civ eliminated), not being able to communicate with a civ does not provide forgiveness.

Well, this is all very sad and unfortunate.

BTW, there's no way to mod a save game to somehow fix our reputation flag?

The info in this thread may just be the most vital when you move up from emp level trying to keep pace with AI on, say, deity. I 2 consecutive I have run into serious problems when my rep was ditched due to gpt deals that was broken unintentionally on my behalf. An RoP with an AI that involves another AI in between is a high risk deal indeed. In both these games the in-between civ has declared on me, thus breaking the RoP with far away civ. I didn't think RoP's were affected but now I know better

Edit: One question has arised sice I started paying attantion to rep. If a do a gpt deal with an opponent and don't have the tech required to carry it out, will my rep go bye, bye? Example is suicide curraghs. On an arch map I can reach an AI with a suicide curragh and thus make a deal. But as i understand it, AI don't use this tactic. Could it be AI consider the deal broken as soon as it notices the there is no trade route?

Vol said:

After much investigation, we determined the cause:
- Once you have warred with a civilization, peace is dealt with as a "deal" from then on, in the Active Trades, the Peace Treaty (16) will always have turns left on it
- Even if this Peace Treaty deal is straight-up, and includes nothing else, if war is declared while there is still a number left in the Active trades box, your reputation will be broken!

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I didn't know about this and still doubt this is the case. It's in fact contradictory to my "Peace Treaty Reputation" section. If someone could come up with the save and instruction to reproduce this problem I'd certainly be intested.

Perugia said:

Can you confirm the definition of hard goods includes workers, maps, cities and communications ie anything that does not expire in 20 turns?

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Yes.

As you said under Peace Treaty Reputation, if you are paying per-turn for a peace treaty then that is also a "rep-risky deal". Shouldn't that be explicitly included in the first definition as a peace treaty is arguably not "hard goods" as it can be renegotiated in 20 turns.

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It's actually quite different. If you sign a peace treaty and get some hard goods (like gold) from the AI, and immediately break it, your rep is intact. So peace treaty really has nothing to do with trading reputation.

However, I have to admit the rules about MA/MPP/Peace treaty didn't go through too much testing. Feel free to prove me wrong (but better with saves).

Does it matter what else is included in the deal on either side, whether gpt or "hard goods"? Would you agree that as long as you include a MA in the deal and the target is eliminated the other gpt trades stop executing without a rep hit to either the player or AI A as neither side can execute the trade without B in the game.

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It doesn't matter. You always get away.

Do I understand correctly that if you are paying resources to a civ that is destroyed you get a rep hit.

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Yes.

I will gladly provide the save. It is attached below. As previously stated, this was in PTW 1.27f.

If you load the game up, you will notice that our reputation is in-tact. The simplest test is offering 1 gpt to Korea for its 8 gold. They will accept the deal.

Now, straight-up declare war on Spain. Go back and check Korea. Now, for the same deal, they would never accept. Reputation is broken.

The per-turn trades with Russia are not a factor. As you can tell after war is declared, the spices and incense are still being traded. The path through Korea (land and sea) and the Great Lighthouse ensure it.

The current peace treaty with Spain was straight peace-for-peace, nothing else was included in the deal. If you don't believe me, I can provide the 600 AD save as well, as the same thing happens if you play from there.

If anyone can come up with an explanation other than the one I provided above, which contradicts this article, I welcome it.

I loaded the save into Conquests 1.22 to see if it was just a PTW thing and found something seriously wrong with the save.

I managed to get the 1gpt deal with Korea as you said but prior to the DoW checked diplomacy with Spain. All of the options are greyed out - you cannot trade with Spain for anything. Specifically you cannot put the active peace treaty (14) on the table and then press escape.

With other civs hte diplo screen is OK and specifically you can put the peace treaty on the table and DoW by cancelling the active trade.

I reckon that means when you DoW on Spain the game treats it as if you actually moved a unit into their territory and attacked to carry out the DoW.

Vol how did you DoW? Do you get the greyed screen in PTW. I don't have my PTW disk with me so can't check now (I didn't bother to reinstall from the Conquests CD).

BTW I will look out for a save where I redeclared on an enemy and did not get a rep hit and will post it if I find one.

The declaration of war was done by selecting "We grow tired of your insolence, prepare for WAR!" on the first diplomacy screen. Just a straight-up declaration.

Of course you cannot renegotiate peace (it is grayed out) when the deal still has turns left on it. I'm aware of no per-turn deal that you can renegotiate (put back on the table) before its over.

You can trade anything else with Spain in the normal fashion, like getting their 15 gold and world map for contact with the vikings.

I tried out Vol's save in conquests, and it works the way he describes. India's rep is fine to begin with (can trade gpt for lump sum). Declaring war on Spain breaks a 20-turn peace treaty, and breaks no other deals. After that, India's rep is ruined because of what we did to Spain (can't make the same trades as before).

I think the exploit with peace treaties is that you can always get paid for peace even if you always declare war again immediately after. It ruins you trade reputation, but other civs never learn that paying for peace buys them nothing.

Great thread, this one!

Has anyone experienced this: In my current game I have a luxury swap going. I am importing silks in exchange for 2 of my luxuries. While this trade is still active, I plan to capture a city (from a different AI) which would also give me my own source of the silks I'm already importing.
So what happens in a case like that? Will the deal be canceled, and would I get a rep hit? Or should I cancel the trade first?

You'll still be importing the silks.

- Once you have warred with a civilization, peace is dealt with as a "deal" from then on, in the Active Trades, the Peace Treaty (16) will always have turns left on it
- Even if this Peace Treaty deal is straight-up, and includes nothing else, if war is declared while there is still a number left in the Active trades box, your reputation will be broken!

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http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146621

And I play conquest. I warred with them, made peace (can't remember if the initial deal had transaction in it) the peace expired, renewing itself to 20 turns. (and near as I can tell will just keep renewing itself, forcing you to attack at the specific turn between the set) So basically, if you have a peace treaty that has any turns on it. Its trust breaking to attack.

microbe said:

Peace treaty reputation

Well, there is no such a thing. It means if you sign or renew a peace treaty and declare within 20 turns, you do not incur a rep hit, unless by doing so you break a gpt deal (within the same peace treaty or not).

So you could attack an AI, sign peace and get several cities, and break it immediately without a rep hit. However, many consider it an exploit.

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You cant breake peace treaty without a rep hit.
Moderators, please correct this article in War Academy, it misleads people.
Here is Deity SG, where we have ruined rep using peace treaty abuse, anybody can download save and see that this article is wrong