Will BtS fix the Vassal System?

There remain pretty serious problems with the vassal system as far as a number of us on these forums are concerned. I won't go in and list them at this point, suffice it to say it just needs another overhaul to get it up to speed. (for anyone interested in more, check out the Acid crew's deity succession game playing as Egypt where they discuss it.)

I'm curious if BtS will include fixes to the vassal system?

Has anyone heard anything?

I really hope so ... at least when we are war with civ A and civ B vassalizes A, civ B should appear and say:"hey guy, civ A is now under my guard. Make peace with A or suffer the consequences!!!" and the peace or war options. And letting a master release a vassal would help too ( maybe with a diplo -) ....

They might even remove the feature altogether if enough people keep complaining about it.

Well the only real 'problems' are

the change in diplo status (as r rolo mentions..although that was improved significantly... Peace negotiations should immediately be open)

the fact that the AI funnels techs at its Vassals [bad for when you have Permanent Allies and your AI gives techs to an advanced Vassal]

the Human player's inability to be a Vassal (It'd be nice to have that Weaker, Early form of Permanent Alliance with a more powerful, friendly AI)

I Don't think the ability to ditch a Vassal Would be good. (Perhaps as a Diplo option that an AI would only take if they feel strong relative to you)

I don't see the huge problems others seem to. I far prefer the current system to no vassal system at all.

I wish that humans could be AI vassels, that's confuddled me to no end.

I love the vassel system, it was one of the selling points to me on Warlords. A few tweaks and it will be pwneriffic.

Yeah, I don't want it removed, just the messed up things fixed up.

In that succession game I referred to they had something really weird happen. Basically, they had one ally who was friendly who hated another civ who they vassalized. The friendly ally had been planning to attack the vassal I guess and ended up attacking them, even though they were on friendly terms...

Weird (and not so weird) stuff like that needs to be fixed up imo

if you want to be a vassal to an ai so bad, well you can, with worldbuilder.

Infantry#14 said:

if you want to be a vassal to an ai so bad, well you can, with worldbuilder.

Click to expand...

I didn't know that :O

I wish you could offer it in trade, along with other things. Like, say, you give me Tech A and we'll declare war on your worst enemy. I don't understand why Humans can't trade embargos and wars with the AI.

PimpyMicPimp said:

I didn't know that :O

I wish you could offer it in trade, along with other things. Like, say, you give me Tech A and we'll declare war on your worst enemy. I don't understand why Humans can't trade embargos and wars with the AI.

Click to expand...

the civ4 AI was programmed by one man - Johnson. Johnson was a smart man, no doubt, but there is only so much one can accomplish alone. I bet they left these options out because the AI could not handle them properly and would be subject to human abuse.

There is a mod under development that lets humans be vassals. Actually, it's something like one line in SDK which prohibits that.

The mod is here if you're interested. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=219912

I haven't had a chance to test out the new SDK so I don't know if it works, but hey, give it a try and see...

Another problem with Vassal is that, when Civ A is the master of Civ B and the player vassalize the master, the vassal (civ B) automatically becomes at peace with the player, but does not automatically become vassal.

The way I see it is that, the moment the master agrees to be himself vassalized, the vassal can choose to: 1) break free and continue the war; or 2) be at peace with the invader and, together with the master, become the invader's vassal.

Other than no human to Ai vassals its not broken. The system works fine.
I have no problem with vassals other than "we yearn to join our motherland" Right now vassals are great for selling resources too and make excellent bullet sponges. Using the lets discuss something else option, you can make your vassals do some things that are actually logical.

I think that there should be possibility to get rid of vassals, which don't obey their masters. However there probably has to be some limits for that in order to prevent exploitation. At least there should be some time limit that has to be expired before vassal states can be punished.

The only issue I have is someone becoming a vassal when I'm already at war with them and not being immediately given the option for peace. After all this is a LARGE strategic change, and rather annoying if I'm about ready to finish crushing someone.

It's especially annoying if they become a "vassal" of a powerful civilization I was friends with. Especially one I was aiming for a PA with.

I agree that the Vassel system needs to be improved. I hate when I've nearly eliminated a civ and suddenly they become a Vassal to another civ, and it triggers a war. If anything, it should trigger peace.

Ideally, if a civ becomes a Vassal State its Master should issue a warning that your enemy has become their Vassal, and will issue an ultimatum that you either agree to a cease fire or they'll join the war against you.

Also, you should have the option of relinquishing your Vassal. The reason being that your reputation can suffer if your Vassal is the rivals with another civ, so you might prefer to improve your relations with that civ rather than keep your Vassal. Also, if your Vassal only has one or a few cities left, and especially if they're isolated colony cities on the other side of the map, chances are that another civ will attack them and drag you into a war. That's why I'd prefer to have the option to relinquish a Vassal State.

Also, I think that if a civ becomes your Vassal, you should be able to demand anything from them, including Gold, Technology, Resources (even if they only have one of that resource), World Map, as well as decide their policies (like trade and open borders), civics, and state religion. The only thing that I think that if the Vassal State refuses you, you should be given the option to declare war. Also, the Vassal State should be allowed to declare war on you if you demand too much.

I agree with the above points, the Vassal system at the momnet is flawed, mainly because there are few bonuses for actually having a vassal...

When a vassal surrenders to a potential ally is the most infuriating part of a game, although it does add an intersting dynamic, i suppose.

EDIT: My proposition for adding more to the master-vassal relationship:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=224250