New Leaders (art, personalities, diplomacy texts)

Jesus H. Christ! You guys have certainly put a lot of posts up overnight. Well I have to get ready to go back to work, hopefully when I get home I'll have some time to sort this out. Very quickly though; Mao has to keep one of his original traits, sorry TAdF. I don't want to change too much, I hardly want to change anything.

Understood, I guess. I'll just edit him for my game.

Also, if you're still wanting a different fourth bonus for Nomadic/Traditional/Whateverwe'recalling it, I've got some different suggestions:

*Reduced cost of the government civics (Could be difficult to implement)

*+x culture for stable and harbor. (The way I'm thinking with this... that's going to be the two main connectors for a nomadic/traditionalist/primative city. That's going to be how they expand.)

*Some promotion relating towards maneuverability of melee units. Like, if you were to implement the desert promos from the BtS scenarios (and Extra), it could be like... all melee units start with Desert Whatever 1 (I forget the name) and Woodsman 1. Or just Woodsman 1, or Woodsman 1 & Woodsman 2.
With that, the way I'm thinking is that most of the cultures who'd have leaders we'd give this trait (Native Americans, Pre-Columbian empires, traditionalists like Ho Chi Minh, etc) were... more in touch with nature, and better at getting around and dealing with less friendly areas.



Edit: I just realized.
Ho Chi Minh is -perfect- for Nationalistic/Nomadic (or Traditionalist, which I'm starting to prefer as a name. It's a bit more encompassing.)


Edit 2: Another leader that could probably fit Nationalistic (and could maybe even be Nat/Spi since we have Vodun as a religion) would be Papa Doc Duvalier.
 
Oh, you are right. How could I miss Duvalier?
But what about Isabella and Ivan? Any other reactions if they could get Nationalistic trait?

Right now, our base national leaders:
Stalin: Ind
Mao: Exp - Org suits him little more, but then no nat/exp combo
Hirohito: Imp
Kim Jong-il: Cre
Franco: Fin
Pol Pot: Agg
Ben-Gurion: Pro
Ho Chi Minh: Org - maybe Nomadic could work
Lincoln: Phi
Hitler: Cha
Theodora: Cre - maybe Spi if it suits her

Ivan IV: Exp - altough I'm not sure if he is good/bad enough for Nationalistic
Isabella: Spi - same here as for Ivan

Modpack leaders who will surely get Nat:
Mussolini: Imp
Ahmadenijad: Ind
Mobutu: Imp
Pinochet: Agg
Peron: Fin
Tito: Ind
Suharto: Pro
Marcos: Org
Hussein: Cha
Idi Amin: Agg
Castro: Cha
Duvalier: Spi

Also came up, but I'm not totally sure on them whether they should be Nationalistic or not:
Collins: Phi
Andranik: ?
Khomeini: Spi ?
Obasanjo: ?
Eyadema: ?
Chavez: ?
Mongkut, Daar, Jinnah - rather not
 
I figure Mobutu might be better as Nat/Org than Nat/Imp.
His nation was a kleptocracy that just sort of buried itself into the ground, so it's kinda hard to set his traits period... but Org fits with his "one man rule" extreme dictatorship style, kinda. He didn't really have an empire.

Think any of the Romans would work well with Nat, compared to their current traits? I mean at least Julius and Augustus fit the bill.
 
I have no problems with that change. You are right, it's really better for him
Do we have any other candidates for Imp then (besides Hirohito and Mussolini)?
 
I have no problems with that change. You are right, it's really better for him
Do we have any other candidates for Imp then (besides Hirohito and Mussolini)?

Augustus seems like a good choice for Nat/Imp, to me.
Up to Capo entirely, though. Besides him being the mod maker, he also seems to be the biggest Roman Empire fan here.
 
Hm. Augustus. Same category for me as Ivan and Isabella. We should definitely wait for Capo on these.

Also, what leaders should definitely be Nationalistic from the last few I posted before?
Collins (Phi), Andranik, Khomeini (Spi), Obasanjo, Eyadema, Chavez


EDIT: Just an idea: what if we add Nat/Sea for Suharto? Probably just because he is Indonesian, but maybe it can work...
 
I really think talking about the modpacks right now is a huge waste of time, that is what the modpack thread is for, because we'll be discussing them as I make them. So for now I'll focus on the ones in the mod. This is what you wrote:

Right now, our base national leaders:
Stalin: Ind
Mao: Exp - Org suits him little more, but then no nat/exp combo
Hirohito: Imp
Kim Jong-il: Cre
Franco: Fin
Pol Pot: Agg
Ben-Gurion: Pro
Ho Chi Minh: Org - maybe Nomadic could work
Lincoln: Phi
Hitler: Cha
Theodora: Cre - maybe Spi if it suits her

Ivan IV: Exp - altough I'm not sure if he is good/bad enough for Nationalistic
Isabella: Spi - same here as for Ivan

Here is what I think. First of all, I don't think Isabella should be nationalistic, I am not too sure Ivan should be either, so I am going to omit them. Ben-Gurion should be Expansive and Nationalistic, which puts Mao back at Organized. Kim Jon-il being Nationalist and Creative really bothers me, but since Ben-Gurion is no longer protective, I think Kim should be Nationailst/Protective. Which leaves Creative open for theodora. Remove Org from Ho Chi Minh and give him Nomadic, and I think we have ourselves a list. Here it is just in case there is confusion.
  • Stalin - Nationalistic/Industrious
  • Mao - Nationalistic/Organized
  • Hirohito - Nationalistic/Imperialist
  • Kim Jong-il - Nationalistic/Protective
  • Franco - Nationalistic/Financial (I still don't like this combination)
  • Pol Pot - Nationalistic/Aggressive
  • Ben-Gurion - Nationalistic/Expansive
  • Lincoln - Nationalistic/Philosophical
  • Ho Chi Minh - Nationalistic/Nomadic (or whatever we call it)
  • Hitler - Nationalistic/Charismatic
  • Theodora - Nationalistic/Creative

I think that list is as good as we're going to get it.

EDIT: If you want to use the Spiritual trait I'd go with Richelieu, if you want to use the Seafaring trait I'm not sure who you could really use as I at least want to try and keep the base leaders with either one of their base traits or a base trait from BtS. So I'm not sure, but maybe Victoria. Personally I'd rather just maybe add Richelieu as Nationalistic/Spiritual and call this finished.
 
I don't know who Duvalier, Collins, Suharto, Idi Amin, Andranik, Khomeini, Obasanjo, Eyadema, Mongkut, Daar, or Jinnah are! :p I Actually don't know how many playtests have come out since the one I have, so I'm a little lost at seeing some of these leaderheads, which aren't in my playtest.
 
I really think talking about the modpacks right now is a huge waste of time, that is what the modpack thread is for, because we'll be discussing them as I make them. So for now I'll focus on the ones in the mod. This is what you wrote:



Here is what I think. First of all, I don't think Isabella should be nationalistic, I am not too sure Ivan should be either, so I am going to omit them. Ben-Gurion should be Expansive and Nationalistic, which puts Mao back at Organized. Kim Jon-il being Nationalist and Creative really bothers me, but since Ben-Gurion is no longer protective, I think Kim should be Nationailst/Protective. Which leaves Creative open for theodora. Remove Org from Ho Chi Minh and give him Nomadic, and I think we have ourselves a list. Here it is just in case there is confusion.
  • Stalin - Nationalistic/Industrious
  • Mao - Nationalistic/Organized
  • Hirohito - Nationalistic/Imperialist
  • Kim Jong-il - Nationalistic/Protective
  • Franco - Nationalistic/Financial (I still don't like this combination)
  • Pol Pot - Nationalistic/Aggressive
  • Ben-Gurion - Nationalistic/Expansive
  • Lincoln - Nationalistic/Philosophical
  • Ho Chi Minh - Nationalistic/Nomadic (or whatever we call it)
  • Hitler - Nationalistic/Charismatic
  • Theodora - Nationalistic/Creative

I think that list is as good as we're going to get it.

EDIT: If you want to use the Spiritual trait I'd go with Richelieu, if you want to use the Seafaring trait I'm not sure who you could really use as I at least want to try and keep the base leaders with either one of their base traits or a base trait from BtS. So I'm not sure, but maybe Victoria. Personally I'd rather just maybe add Richelieu as Nationalistic/Spiritual and call this finished.

I agree with your list, save for maybe Ben-Gurion. However, I don't really disagree with it enough to really challenge it.
I also thank you for going against your previous statement of keeping one of Mao's original traits (though technically, Organized was one of Mao's original traits, though I understand what you meant.)

I don't know who Duvalier, Collins, Suharto, Idi Amin, Andranik, Khomeini, Obasanjo, Eyadema, Mongkut, Daar, or Jinnah are! :p I Actually don't know how many playtests have come out since the one I have, so I'm a little lost at seeing some of these leaderheads, which aren't in my playtest.

Duvalier: Insane Voodoo dictator that kinda screwed Haiti back to the stone age. There was a James Bond villain that was basically just Duvalier, I can't remember which film it was. License to Kill?

Collins: Big Irish revolutionary leader, a peaceful one at that. Recommended viewing: Michael Collins, starring Qui Gon Jinn as Michael Collins.

Idi Amin: Will eat you. He will pick you up and eat your head.
He's a... -very- notorious and fairly horrifying Ugandan dictator. Recommended viewing: Last King of Scotland, a relatively fictionalized film about his life.

Khomeini: Fundamentalist religious zealot, ayatollah, and revolutionary leader of Iran.

Mongkut: Yul Brynner in The King and I. He was... for lack of a better comparison, Siam's Meiji.
 
Thanks for clearing that up. Now I want to play against them even more :D
 
HEY! Playing AGAINST Michael Collins (aka "The Big Guy" aka "Mícheál Ó Coileáin") is not allowed in this mod!!! He is a hero of mine!

But yeah, TAdF is correct on all points. Although I'd say slightly exaggerated.

EDIT: Haiti is going to be an extremely fun civ BTW, in fact I have already donated to them. And I'm thinking of promising donating at least two bucks more a DL for the module pack Haiti is in. :goodjob:

(based on the original DLs I think that is around 500 dollars American in addition to the money I have already donated, so I think it is a worthy cause)

The reason is because firstly, I think the Western-Hemisphere in general was a great change to the world. And on top of that Haiti was the first free-black republic there, and the second republic to liberate itself from a world-power in my part of the world (the first being the good ol' US of A) . It also gave troops to support my country in the war against Britain in 1812, so I have a soft spot in my heart for tiny Haiti (and I don't mean that as a slight, I mean that as a compliment, if such a small and poor country can help mine against British arrogance and tyranny, they're okay in my book). Not only that, but they defeated the French over and over again, even when Napoleon ruled it, and Toussaint L'Overture is one of my favorite historical persons (he is one of the LHs I made, click on the link for a... well, link).
 
Been thinking about this more and, the more I think about it, Pol Pot might fit Traditionalist (or Nomadic, whichever we name it, I'm just gonna call it Traditional for now since it sounds a bit less dumb and a bit more encompassing) better.
His goal was basically... a sort of primativism. I don't really know a better word for "He wanted a dumber, less advanced nation."*

So, my recommendations for Traditionalist and Seafaring civs using base game leaders:

SEAFARING:
  • Canute: Aggressive
  • Dido: Financial
  • Harald: Charismatic
  • Henry the Navigator: Organized
  • Philip II: Imperialist
  • Salamasina: Creative
  • Joao: Expansive
  • Victoria: Imperialist
  • Kamehameha: Protective

TRADITIONAL:
  • Pol Pot: Protective
  • Ho Chi Minh: Nationalist
  • Crazy Horse: Aggressive
  • Hiawatha: Organized
  • Logan: Spiritual
  • Genghis: Imperialist
  • Shaka: Expansive
  • Pacachuti: Industrial


That leaves only the following trait pairings not used in the base game:
Nationalist/Seafaring (though honestly Victoria could use this, I guess.)
Traditional/Seafaring (Could go for Salamasina)
Seafaring/Industrial (I can't think of any leader that'd fit this)
Traditional/Creative (Everytime I try to envision this, I just picture a Tibetan leader)
Seafaring/Spiritual (The closest I can think to this with already existing leaders is Suleiman, really. Turkey's naval abilities never get much of a spotlight.)


*=At 1AM I don't, at least.


Edit:
Also, this frees up Nat/Agg.
I suggest we make Hitler Nat/Agg and Napoleon Nat/Cha.
 
I would rather keep Pol Pot as Nationalistic/Aggressive, It still suits him more than Nomadic(Traditional)/Protective. Just check the bonuses, the reduced maintenance cost from distance is probably the most important part of that trait, and it has not much to do with Pol Pot

This is Capo's and my last list combined. Of the base leaders we dropped the idea of Isabella, and I'm also against Napoleon. Added Richelieu instead, and still thinking of Ivan:
Stalin: Ind
Mao: Org
Hirohito: Imp
Kim Jong-il: Pro
Franco: Fin
Pol Pot: Agg
Ben-Gurion: Exp - if we also add Ivan Ben-Gurion can get a more suitable second trait for him (he was Ind/Pro)
Ho Chi Minh: Nom(Tra)
Lincoln: Phi
Hitler: Cha
Theodora: Cre
Richelieu: Spi
Ivan IV: Exp - altough I'm not sure if he is good/bad enough for Nationalistic

And here are the modpack leaders (check the post after this to see why I would like to make these traits balaced too):
Mussolini: Imp
Ahmadenijad: Ind
Mobutu: Org
Pinochet: Agg
Peron: Fin
Tito: Ind
Suharto: Pro - maybe we could add him Seafaring?
Marcos: Org
Hussein: Cha
Idi Amin: Agg
Castro: Cha
Duvalier: Spi

Maybe also could get Nat:
Augustus: Imp
Collins: Phi
Khomeini: Spi
Andranik: Pro
Chavez: Phi
Obasanjo: ?
Eyadema: ?

What do you think of these last few and Ivan? Should they be Nationalistic (keep in mind the bonuses we gave to that trait)?
 
I really think talking about the modpacks right now is a huge waste of time, that is what the modpack thread is for, because we'll be discussing them as I make them. So for now I'll focus on the ones in the mod

Yeah I'm totally aware that you want to prioritize the main release only. And you have your point there, as many people will only use that one, so it sohuld be perfectly balanced.
That's why I always separated the base Diplomacy II leaders and the non base leaders. If you noticed I always tried to add all trait combos to them and avoid multiple combos wherever it's possible.

But I also want to make the whole mod balanced. The reasons stated before more or less applies here too (have the traits fairly evenly spread, at least the original ones).
But the main reason for this I really don't want to have any trait combos used more than 4 times, and mostly keep all of them at max 3
For this it's much easier to decide all the possible leaders and combos for the 3 new traits when we do it for the base leaders

Also, that's why I made the spreadsheet in the first place. I want to keep it up to date, and this way it will be much easier to everyone (especially for you) to keep track of the traits
 
That's fine Absinthe, I know you are keeping them seperated purposefully so it is fine.

I gotta get going today, I probably won't be able to do much until monday night because I'm busy all night tonight and then I gotta work monday. :(

For some quick notes though; I don't think we NEED to fill all trait combos, so arbitrarily figuring out who will be Seafaring/Nomadic(Traditionalist) is not important to me, I'd rather get the traits right for each leader (so they at least make some sense) and then make sure they are spread for each civ, and then make sure they are spread for the whole game.
 
The word "traditionalist" reminds me a little too much of this guy.



Oh, well, it still refers to barbarians. :lol:
 
That's fine Absinthe, I know you are keeping them seperated purposefully so it is fine.

I gotta get going today, I probably won't be able to do much until monday night because I'm busy all night tonight and then I gotta work monday. :(

For some quick notes though; I don't think we NEED to fill all trait combos, so arbitrarily figuring out who will be Seafaring/Nomadic(Traditionalist) is not important to me, I'd rather get the traits right for each leader (so they at least make some sense) and then make sure they are spread for each civ, and then make sure they are spread for the whole game.

Cool , than I will keep doing this
The most important thing is of course that the trait combo fits the leaders very well, we only have some kind of "freedom" when more than 2 traits fits some of the leaders. So naturally, if the 2 traits are perfect for a leader, we should never switch to another trait combo just because that's rarely used...

Btw, what's your (and everyone else's) opinion on the LH's I asked in the end of my previous post? Should/could they be Nationalistic?


EDIT: Actually it wasn't my last post. I'm talking about Ivan, Augustus, Khomeini, Andranik, Collins, Chavez, Obasanjo and Eyadema
 
I'd rather leave Augustus as he is to be honest. Ivan I have always been iffy about, so I would be willing to change his traits, I'm not sure if Nationalistic is good for him though, but it might be, I don't know much about Ivan to be honest. For the expansions, discuss away, I'm not that concerned with them right now.
 
I'd rather leave Augustus as he is to be honest. Ivan I have always been iffy about, so I would be willing to change his traits, I'm not sure if Nationalistic is good for him though, but it might be, I don't know much about Ivan to be honest. For the expansions, discuss away, I'm not that concerned with them right now.

Traits I feel fit Ivan:
Charismatic
Organized
Expansive
Protective
Nationalistic

Really, any combination of those five.
I'd probably vote Nat/Exp, so Ben-Gurion can be the more fitting Nat/Pro.

I can agree with keeping Augustus as Imp/Ind. The Roman leaders that fit Nat the best would probably be along the lines of Commodous and Caligula (especially Caligula.)
 
Top Bottom