War Weariness Mechanics

Skallagrimson · Oct 5, 2007

_alphaBeta_ said:
Keep in mind that it isn't necessarily the owner of the tile. If you're righting in recently conquered lands against a third party, both you and the third party will accrue WW. It's the civ with the highest culture percentage on the tile.

I asked this on the Strategy forum and everyone's clueless:

Do bombards count against WW? Reductions of city defense by siege engines, aircraft, etc.?

Also, I'm assuming attacks against units by aircraft (e.g., airships in BtS) accrue WW, but is it possible they don't for some reason?

cabert · Oct 8, 2007

Skallagrimson said:
I asked this on the Strategy forum and everyone's clueless:

Do bombards count against WW? Reductions of city defense by siege engines, aircraft, etc.?

Also, I'm assuming attacks against units by aircraft (e.g., airships in BtS) accrue WW, but is it possible they don't for some reason?

I have the feeling that non lethal war actions don't lead to WW.
What gives me this feeling is that there is a "win" WW gain and a "lose" WW gain, but no "retreat" WW gain.
So basically the situation where you don't win nor lose isn't covered.

Roland Johansen · Oct 8, 2007

Skallagrimson said:
I asked this on the Strategy forum and everyone's clueless:

Do bombards count against WW? Reductions of city defense by siege engines, aircraft, etc.?

Also, I'm assuming attacks against units by aircraft (e.g., airships in BtS) accrue WW, but is it possible they don't for some reason?

In BTS, you can easily see which actions lead to war weariness as there is a war weariness counter for each civilisation which each other civilisation. Your war weariness counter is in the scoreboard in the bottom right corner of the main map (when you activate the scoreboard). You can see that the war weariness doesn't increase by using bombing missions, removing city defence bonuses by bombing and by using other attacks that don't cause kills on either side.

Skallagrimson · Oct 8, 2007

For air unit attacks on units that only damage, I guess I'm going to have to watch the meter and see how it plays. Thanks.

JaeKayLMNOP · Nov 18, 2007

So is there no way to decrease WW during a war besides ending the war or building Jail, Mt. Rushmore or Police State? It just keeps building up over time?

Also, the WW you accumulate from killing units, does that just keep building up? That doesn't make sense to me, because you could be in a war in which you kill 50 units, but WW usually doesn't reach 50. Is WW recalculated each turn?

_alphaBeta_ · Nov 19, 2007

JaeKayLMNOP said:
So is there no way to decrease WW during a war besides ending the war or building Jail, Mt. Rushmore or Police State? It just keeps building up over time?

Also, the WW you accumulate from killing units, does that just keep building up? That doesn't make sense to me, because you could be in a war in which you kill 50 units, but WW usually doesn't reach 50. Is WW recalculated each turn?

BTS introduces a WW number that can be viewed when you mouseover another leader. This is just the raw value from which the unhappiness in cities is calcualted. It goes up after every battle in real time.

As far as the effect on cities, I think that's calculated and applied every turn (not in real-time). I don't really know, because I usually run police state, Mt. Rushmore and Jails when I'm on the offensive. Note that the raw WW number still increases in this case, but the buildings and civics stop it from affecting your cities. Hence, you want to wait until the war is over before switching out of police state (or you'll be in big trouble).

My latest, I invaded Casear and am up to ~1300 WW. I'm sure other war players here have shattered this number. Even if I declare peace now, it would take the rest of the game to have this number fully decay.

_alphaBeta_ · Nov 19, 2007

Something interesting has come up. Now that you can see the raw WW number when you mouseover other leaders, I noticed my WW goes up even if I'm attacking where I'm culturally superior. It's not a lot, but there's some there.

Perhaps it's some kind of ratio, because I'm accruing it in tiles that are 60-70% me. OR it could be that I'm attacking a lot. I just took down ~25 enemy units in one turn. Maybe there's a threshold where you attack so many times.

Skallagrimson · Nov 19, 2007

_alphaBeta_ said:
Something interesting has come up. Now that you can see the raw WW number when you mouseover other leaders, I noticed my WW goes up even if I'm attacking where I'm culturally superior. It's not a lot, but there's some there.

Perhaps it's some kind of ratio, because I'm accruing it in tiles that are 60-70% me. OR it could be that I'm attacking a lot. I just took down ~25 enemy units in one turn. Maybe there's a threshold where you attack so many times.

Interesting. I haven't noticed it go up for me when I attack tiles that are >50% mine. In fact a major strategy of mine right now is to NOT go on the offensive right away, but hang back in my own territory, let the enemy come to me, so that most of the "surplus" units the enemy has, I can eliminate them without a WW hit. And in the modern era, I guarantee success on the ground by pummeling enemy units as much as possible with air units first. If an air unit *can* attack an enemy, I don't let a ground unit try it yet. That doesn't eliminate the need for all the WW-reducing factors, but I have sometimes prosecuted fairly long wars with REPRESENTATION rather than Police State (and usually Mercantilism because my enemy's usually someone all the AIs love which makes them hate me). Gives me the best of both worlds--keep research accelerated with SE-farms while at the same time conquering with armies and "mining soldiers out of the hills" in those extremely unrealistic production-cities.

KrikkitTwo · Nov 20, 2007

JaeKayLMNOP said:
So is there no way to decrease WW during a war besides ending the war or building Jail, Mt. Rushmore or Police State? It just keeps building up over time?

Also, the WW you accumulate from killing units, does that just keep building up? That doesn't make sense to me, because you could be in a war in which you kill 50 units, but WW usually doesn't reach 50. Is WW recalculated each turn?

WW points Decrease over time -1 WW point per turn

Also you can get WW points when you are on a team for their action.

Amask · Dec 21, 2007

I'm playing a game right now where I captured Washington, and someone else finished America off. Now, there was an article on how culture works, and it says that culture for an eliminated civ no longer matters. I attacked from Washington to a tile next to it. In Washington, I had 77% culture, in the target tile - 55% or smth like that (but above 50). I got war weariness. WTF

is there a kind person out there who can test what exactly counts as "home lands" for which no ww occurs? the battle was fairly big and gave me at least 2 angry dudes in all my cities 'cause I was at the happiness limit in all my cities, which sort of screwed me over since I wasn't ready for that at all. And there are more enemy stacks coming which I was hoping to destroy with no ww consequences. Had I known that ww would occur despite my having clearly dominant culture in both tiles, I would've waited with the war. GRRR

Roland Johansen · Dec 22, 2007

Amask said:
I'm playing a game right now where I captured Washington, and someone else finished America off. Now, there was an article on how culture works, and it says that culture for an eliminated civ no longer matters. I attacked from Washington to a tile next to it. In Washington, I had 77% culture, in the target tile - 55% or smth like that (but above 50). I got war weariness. WTF

is there a kind person out there who can test what exactly counts as "home lands" for which no ww occurs? the battle was fairly big and gave me at least 2 angry dudes in all my cities 'cause I was at the happiness limit in all my cities, which sort of screwed me over since I wasn't ready for that at all. And there are more enemy stacks coming which I was hoping to destroy with no ww consequences. Had I known that ww would occur despite my having clearly dominant culture in both tiles, I would've waited with the war. GRRR

I haven't looked into the code, but I have the same experience in BTS. I guess they changed it a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if you got a fraction of war weariness equal to the fraction of foreign culture on the tile. But I don't know exactly how it works.

_alphaBeta_ · Dec 22, 2007

Roland Johansen said:
I wouldn't be surprised if you got a fraction of war weariness equal to the fraction of foreign culture on the tile.

This is my theory as well.

Refar · Dec 22, 2007

Roland Johansen said:
I haven't looked into the code, but I have the same experience in BTS. I guess they changed it a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if you got a fraction of war weariness equal to the fraction of foreign culture on the tile. But I don't know exactly how it works.

I looked it up, and it is as you say. The "raw" war weariness is multipileid with a 'Culture Ratio' thingie...

Code:

iRatio = (100 * iTheirCulture) / (iOurCulture + iTheirCulture);

The higher Their culture on the plot, the more WW we will get.
If Them have 0 culture on that plot, we get 0 WW.
Unless we have 0 culture as well, then we will get the Full WW. We allways get the Full WW, where we have 0 culture. (They did catch the division by 0)
If both have culture, we got a fraction of WW proportional to the culture Ratio.
Third party culture seem not to matter.

Roland Johansen · Dec 23, 2007

Refar said:
I looked it up, and it is as you say. The "raw" war weariness is multipileid with a 'Culture Ratio' thingie...

Code:

iRatio = (100 * iTheirCulture) / (iOurCulture + iTheirCulture);

The higher Their culture on the plot, the more WW we will get.
If Them have 0 culture on that plot, we get 0 WW.
Unless we have 0 culture as well, then we will get the Full WW. We allways get the Full WW, where we have 0 culture. (They did catch the division by 0)
If both have culture, we got a fraction of WW proportional to the culture Ratio.
Third party culture seem not to matter.

Thanks, that's very interesting. If I understand this correctly, it also means that if you (civA) are fighting some units of civB in territory of civC, but you (civA) do have some culture in the tile and your opponent doesn't, then you don't get any war weariness.
So if you're fighting an opponent in your neighbours territory, close to your borders, then you might not get any war weariness.

UncleJJ · Dec 23, 2007

Very interesting; does the term "iourculture" include the culture of our vassals or colonies (which are on our team by definition) as well as our own culture?

Whatever the answer this is a strong reason to pump out as much culture as possible in any tiles where we intend to fight a future war. Creative leaders just got a lot better

. It also is a good reason to fight a defensive war where our culture is obviously stronger than theirs and to draw the battle onto tiles where we have a bigger advantage over them. Now we have to consider the ratio of culure in the tiles as well the defensive bonusses when choosing where to fight.

Skallagrimson · Dec 23, 2007

I knew about the proportional culture effect on partial WW, but I'd be interested to know if there is any effect (or full effect?) from combat on 3rd party ground, either vassals or just open borders territory.

Yet another undocumented feature we, the players, have to test ourselves because Firaxis won't see fit to tell us.

Refar · Dec 23, 2007

The iOurCulture comes from Plot->countFrinedlyCulture(our team). (Same for iTheirCulture, just their team is passed.)

Code:

int CvPlot::countFriendlyCulture(TeamTypes eTeam) const
{
	int iTotalCulture = 0;

	for (int iPlayer = 0; iPlayer < MAX_PLAYERS; ++iPlayer)
	{
		CvPlayer& kLoopPlayer = GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iPlayer);
		if (kLoopPlayer.isAlive())
		{
			CvTeam& kLoopTeam = GET_TEAM(kLoopPlayer.getTeam());
			[B][COLOR="Red"]if (kLoopPlayer.getTeam() == eTeam || kLoopTeam.isVassal(eTeam) || kLoopTeam.isOpenBorders(eTeam))[/COLOR][/B]
			{
				iTotalCulture += getCulture((PlayerTypes)iPlayer);
			}
		}
	}

	return iTotalCulture;
}

So from the look of it, Team Members, Vassals and even Open Boarders partners count as 'friendly culture' here.

Fighting on a Plot where we and our enemy have no Culture, but our Vassal has, should give us no WW.

Also if we fight on a plot, where someone we have open Boarders with has 100% culuture, will give us no WW. There is a interesting twist to it however, if our enemy has OB as well, then we would get 50% WW i think.

Amask · Dec 31, 2007

awesome!
Refar, thanks for answering this question both here and in the other thread where I was complaining.
Now I can go back to my game without feeling that I got shafted by a bug or smth.

VirusMonster · Feb 23, 2008

This article is very good, but I can't figure out 1 thing in my last game... perhaps you can help me....

Genghis Khan in my 500K writeup gave Alphabet and Masonry for free at 207WW. In the writeup, I also put a screenshot for the exact trade.

I don't understand how he got to 207 war weariness with me because almost all of our battles have been inside his own cultural borders. I killed at most 25-30 of his units.

Am I reading this 207 WW wrong? Is this WW on the trade screen telling my empire has 207 WW toward his?

And how does WW affect AI's willingness for a peace treaty? Can one of the game mechanics fans elaborate?

PS. It would also be fantastic if Krikkitone summarized the contributions in this thread and updated this article with new findings from BTS. He can't be private messaged, but I want this article to be more shiny...

Refar · Feb 23, 2008

The 207 WW in your screenshot are the WW you suffer from the war with Gengis.

AFAIK there is not way to see how much WW the AI suffers... Either they forgot it, or this was decision to hide the value, in order tro not piss off the players - because the AI is heavily bonused on WW.

I dont know if and how the WW affects the diplomathy, but i think it doesn't - at least not in direkt way...

War Weariness Mechanics

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King

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