Micro-managing specialists - essential or not?

Traits have an effect on whips too, depending on what you're whipping. For example, a Spiritual leader can 2-pop whip a temple with only 5:hammers: invested in it, with max overflow, if you also have a forge (or organised religion bonus). If you're looking for 1-pop whips instead, which aren't very good, you can do that early with spiritual temples, or with creative libraries for example. Organised leaders get cheap whips for lighthouse, courthouse and factory, which is great really, as you often need at least two of those buildings in long games.

A downside, if one can call it that, is that it can get more tricky to get two-pop whips, because you can only have a few hammers invested in for example a temple if you are spiritual, otherwise it becomes a sucky 1-pop whip. If it doesn't work out great, or I happen to forget to whip when I planned (happens sometimes), I like to put a few hammers into a barracks instead and 2-pop whip that, with overflow 1-turning the next building. This is basically what Seraiel talks about with stacking overflow, though I haven't used that so systematically to 1-turn Oxford and so forth.

Another way to get easy failgold is to put overflows into a wonder you're not planning to complete, from several cities (but you need to remove it from the other city first, as only one city can build a wonder at any time). This also works well with national wonders like HE. Not much point in this if you're not industrious or have stone/marble access, but if you do, it's more effective than building wealth, though the benefit is postponed until an AI completes the wonder.

This, coupled with selling cheap techs to AIs once you get currency, means you can build up quite a bit of :gold: in the early game, enabling you to carry out 100% :science: for a long time, getting you far towards Education and Lib.

:mad: elite typist
 
I hope I'm not wrong but if I remember there is 1 catch with chain whip overflow... it can't be higher than unit/building hammer cost or you will get only these hammers and everything extra will be lost...
 
I hope I'm not wrong but if I remember there is 1 catch with chain whip overflow... it can't be higher than unit/building hammer cost or you will get only these hammers and everything extra will be lost...

Yes, that's true, which is why one must start with a cheap unit/building first, because further down the chain a lot of overflow would be lost/turned into gold.
 
AFAIK building wonders, be they national or of the world, for FailGold is always preferable to building Wealth if you don't need the money right away and have at least one of the following: A resource boosting the production of the wonder, the Industrious trait and the Organized Religion civic as well as your state religion in place. Combine all three for a 175% production bonus in addition to whatever general hammer modifiers (Forge, Factory and State Property) you have in place, making FailGold almost three times as efficient als Wealth. The downside of course is that except for national wonders you have no control over when the money actually comes in, and a given amount of anything is worth more earlier in the game than later.
 
AFAIK building wonders, be they national or of the world, for FailGold is always preferable to building Wealth if you don't need the money right away and have at least one of the following: A resource boosting the production of the wonder, the Industrious trait and the Organized Religion civic as well as your state religion in place. Combine all three for a 175% production bonus in addition to whatever general hammer modifiers (Forge, Factory and State Property) you have in place, making FailGold almost three times as efficient als Wealth. The downside of course is that except for national wonders you have no control over when the money actually comes in, and a given amount of anything is worth more earlier in the game than later.
And perhaps most importantly, chops and whip overflow can be turned into failgold while those hammers cannot be used for building wealth. With IND, OR, forge and the wonder resource, a forest is worth 90:gold: on normal speed!

You don't have to wait for the wonder to be built elsewhere, I like failgolding the wonders I'm building myself as well. Wonders are often best built with chops and whip overflow, those hammers aren't coming in every turn. The turns when the wonderbuilding city doesn't have any extra hammers coming in, you can take it of the line and have some other city put whip overflow into it.

It should also be mentioned that Stonehenge failgold is an excellent source of early gold, even without stone or IND. There's not many other possibilities to get extra gold that early.
 
And perhaps most importantly, chops and whip overflow can be turned into failgold while those hammers cannot be used for building wealth. With IND, OR, forge and the wonder resource, a forest is worth 90:gold: on normal speed!

You don't have to wait for the wonder to be built elsewhere, I like failgolding the wonders I'm building myself as well. Wonders are often best built with chops and whip overflow, those hammers aren't coming in every turn. The turns when the wonderbuilding city doesn't have any extra hammers coming in, you can take it of the line and have some other city put whip overflow into it.

It should also be mentioned that Stonehenge failgold is an excellent source of early gold, even without stone or IND. There's not many other possibilities to get extra gold that early.

If you're receiving failgold from wonders, good for you, you're making a great step in rage quitting. Once you keep the failgold, continue with another wonder that can be available.... If you fail that wonder too, then at least you're making gold for a better research percentage, Unit maintenance in case you want to attack someone and available gold for emergency purposes. Just because you're making failgold doesn't mean you have to quit, there could still be a chance.
 
That's a very odd reply. Failgold is a positive, and very few wonders are worth building, so "losing" out on them isn't negative. Failgold is a means to get ahead, not a sign of failure.
 
Pangaea got it right. Often there's more reason to ragequit if you accidentally complete a wonder.
 
If I whip away two population points now, I will receive 60 (base) * 2 (Creative) * 5/4 (Forge) * 5/4 (OR) = 182 :hammers:, rounded down. Is that correct? That would yield 59 + 182 - 90 = 151 :hammers: of overflow into the Taj Mahal next turn. I assume that they would be multiplied by 2 (marble) * 3/2 (Industrious) * 5/4 * 5/4 again, which equates 706 :hammers:, and that's already enough.
One subtle point that hasn't been addressed: production multipliers are added, not multiplied. So in your case above, the base :hammers: are not multiplied by (2*5/4*5/4)=3.125. The multiplier is (1 [base] + 1 [creative] + 0.25 [forge] + 0.25 [OR]) =2.5.
 
Pangaea got it right. Often there's more reason to ragequit if you accidentally complete a wonder.

You don't always have to complete it unless its temple of artemis since it provides a free great prophet and a chance to get a great merchant. Both of these bring gold per turn but for all other wonders except for colossus, you can failgold them out.
 
The ToA is probably one of the weakest wonders that is in the game.

Colossus also only makes sense under very specific circumstances.
 
I'm not sure if RR realizes you guys are talking about using the whip overflow to get "free" failgold, rather than putting turns of production into the wonder (that is what you're talking about, right?).

EDIT: I don't think I even know what ToA does, lol.
EDIT AGAIN: Looked it up on the Civ wiki. To put it lightly, does not seem worth the hammer cost.
 
I'm not sure if RR realizes you guys are talking about using the whip overflow to get "free" failgold, rather than putting turns of production into the wonder (that is what you're talking about, right?).

EDIT: I don't think I even know what ToA does, lol.
EDIT AGAIN: Looked it up on the Civ wiki. To put it lightly, does not seem worth the hammer cost.

I am talking about all kinds of FailGold, whether you get it by overflow, chopping, or just putting plain old production turns into it.

About Temple of Artemis, it can be worth the hammer cost. I don't know atm what it is though, 200 or so? Anyway, the free priest does provide one hammer per turn, so assuming a cost of 200 hammers you get its cost back if there are at least 200 turns between completing it and researching Scientific Method. You break even earlier if you have Marble and/or are Industrious. Add to that extra trade commerce and +1 Gold per turn. Also don't forget the 5 Great People points, 3 for Priest and 2 for Merchant.

If we look at it out of context it doesn't look so bad. However I can see at least these problems:
You have to research an otherwise pretty useless tech pretty early to get it.
Other civs get extra gold from performing Trade Missions with a Great Merchant in the city containing it.
Merchants and Prophets aren't exactly the most popular types of Great People.
Even if you break even on the hammer cost, there's the question of if and when the extra commerce and Gold breaks even with the FailGold you would have gotten for not completing it.
 
I meant all three versions of building failgold too. Especially if you have stone or marble (or the other multiplier resources), it makes sense to 'slowbuild' a wonder for failgold, if you don't have anything else particularly useful to build. The gold comes later, but it eventually does, and will then help you out.

Not many wonders are truly worth building, but these can be good
  • Oracle
  • Great Lighthouse
  • Pyramids
  • Great Library
  • Mausoleum of Maussollos
  • Taj Mahal
  • Kremlin

Can make a case for some of the others too, but most are a waste of time and hammers, and the above are the only ones I try to build, if it fits with the game I'm playing. A good thing to learn for all new-ish players is that you can get by perfectly fine without building a single wonder.
 
Yeah, that's allright too I guess, though I practically never build it. Don't need aqueducts that early.
 
Why would you need HG if youre going for gold? Going for gold doesnt always have to be toa, fail gold nor most of the other wonders that pangea had recommended just as long as youre getting some steady income. I was under the belief that you guys were going for gold. Now im believing that you guys put HG for failgold.
 
He's not going for gold, he listed the wonders that are worth building at all. The rest, those not on his list, are mainly good for failgold.

I think none of us are going for gold, we are going for fast research. Gold is just a means of getting there. But you don't need a steady income for that. Only steady income I have is usually from selling resources. The rest comes from conquering cities, selling techs, GM trade missions and building failgold or wealth. In many games this has been enough to keep slider at 100% all the time from Currency to Liberalism. Any extra gold/turn that would come from running a priest would be nothing compared to the sums I get from the other sources. It wouldn't really help at all. It only slows me down because running a priest would mean I am not running a scientist.
 
Oh, I missed Imp. Knoedel's post #44 there. With production modifiers I can see why putting turns into a wonder for failgold would work.
 
Oh, I missed Imp. Knoedel's post #44 there. With production modifiers I can see why putting turns into a wonder for failgold would work.

Yeah, in many cases You would say IND is an effective trait not because of wonders, but particularly for failgold.
 
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