davidlallen
Deity
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Yes, there are two possible big changes coming. Please drop by the Arrakis.py map script discussion to learn more. This is related to the starting plot calculation; especially on the archipelago mapscript, some civs start surrounded by rugged and have difficulty growing.
The diplo penalty should definitely go away if they switch; I will check that. I assume there is a big resistance to switching to a "hated civic", but I can check that also; I am reluctant to make it impossible.
That is *definitely* a bug.
Good suggestion.
Most of the civs have a "favorite civic" and "hated civic" for these, so they are highly likely to switch to their favorite. In addition pro-spice has a benefit with no real visible penalty, so there is no reason to avoid it unless it is "hated". Do you ever see the paradise civs switching to it?
We thought this was due to high spice commerce. However, after some study it seems to be because foreign commerce income is much higher than vanilla. Can you confirm in your finance advisor screen? I have locally reduced the foreign commerce income, so this should be more balanced in the next patch.
Other playtesters have commented about this as well. I attempted to make pro-spice stronger by decreasing the rate at which spice decays in pro-spice lands. However spice decays so slowly now, this may not be noticeable. What other effects can we give pro-spice to make it stronger? Later game techs which enable even more hammer or commerce bonuses?
This is definitely the intention. Things may be skewed now by foreign trade income; let us see if it looks better after the next patch.
We have not done anything to make upgrades more or less expensive, so it should work the same as vanilla and most other mods. What is different about planetfall, just a blanket percent decrease in upgrade cost compared to vanilla?
I agree with you. There are two ways to sort the list: important to gameplay, and easy to implement. Unfortunately this is important to gameplay and hard to implement. There are three places to change, which have completely unrelated code: each mapscript for initial placement, and the internal AI for deciding where to place colonies. (Neither mapscript uses the internal AI.) We will fix this, I just don't know when.
Excellent point. We'll spread them out.
We have a graphic for "raincloud" which I plan to launch from Reservoirs of Liet, like sandstorms launch from deep desert today. For lakes, we could also add the existing Oasis feature, and for the very late game, actual lakes using the vanilla water graphics. I agree this would be cool. The implementation of terraforming is all in python and it has gotten fairly complex. I may try to move some of this into the sdk; expanding the Fresh Water data stored on the map will make a lot of the complexity go away. Stay tuned!
We do appreciate the feedback, please write more! We have used a convention for providing feedback which may seem strange, but will help us make sure all feedback is addressed. Next time you give feedback with a numbered list, could you start the list at 10? In other words, across all your posts, please use a unique number for each feedback instead of starting over at 1.
edorazio said:1. I see in the sub-forum you guys are changing the terrain up a little. Currently, Rugged terrain does not terraform. This makes it extremely poor terrain, particularly in light of my concerns with other aspects of the terraforming civic (see below). Perhaps Rugged should only terraform into plains?
Yes, there are two possible big changes coming. Please drop by the Arrakis.py map script discussion to learn more. This is related to the starting plot calculation; especially on the archipelago mapscript, some civs start surrounded by rugged and have difficulty growing.
2. Currently, building a Reservoir of Liet yields thats -2 diplomatic penalty with, I believe, only civs running the pro-spice civic. A few problems with this. First, if you convince them to switch civics to Arrakis Paradise (side note: I wonder if you should even be able to do this...), you retain this penalty.
The diplo penalty should definitely go away if they switch; I will check that. I assume there is a big resistance to switching to a "hated civic", but I can check that also; I am reluctant to make it impossible.
Second, if you disable the terraforming victory condition, you can accumulate enormous negative diplomatic penalties.
That is *definitely* a bug.
Its enough to overwhelm every other factor in diplomacy and basically means you will never trade with a pro-spice faction for the rest of the game. Perhaps cap the penalty at -8ish, or perhaps -10 max total for the Reservoirs and the current -4 for using terraforming.
Good suggestion.
3. At least in my games so far, the vast majority of civs switch to pro-spice. I think this is because they research it first as it is a much cheaper tech and comes sooner in the tree. It seems like a civ immediately switches to the first Arrakis Future civic they get, unless they are, what I assume to be, hardcoded to prefer one over the other, i.e. Corrino for pro-spice and the fremen for paradise.
Most of the civs have a "favorite civic" and "hated civic" for these, so they are highly likely to switch to their favorite. In addition pro-spice has a benefit with no real visible penalty, so there is no reason to avoid it unless it is "hated". Do you ever see the paradise civs switching to it?
4. At regular speed, at least the first half of the entire tech tree goes by way too fast
We thought this was due to high spice commerce. However, after some study it seems to be because foreign commerce income is much higher than vanilla. Can you confirm in your finance advisor screen? I have locally reduced the foreign commerce income, so this should be more balanced in the next patch.
5. I still think the pro-spice civic is way too weak, especially versus the terraformers.
Other playtesters have commented about this as well. I attempted to make pro-spice stronger by decreasing the rate at which spice decays in pro-spice lands. However spice decays so slowly now, this may not be noticeable. What other effects can we give pro-spice to make it stronger? Later game techs which enable even more hammer or commerce bonuses?
Spice in general is still way to weak as well. I don't feel like it is a must-have thing right now, which makes no sense in the Dune universe. You get a modest economic bonus for each one right now. Why not, at the least, a much larger CREDIT bonus in the capital for each resource?
This is definitely the intention. Things may be skewed now by foreign trade income; let us see if it looks better after the next patch.
6. Related to 6, I think upgrade costs should be decreased; significantly so if you don't implement 5 above. Planetfall has done this well, I think.
We have not done anything to make upgrades more or less expensive, so it should work the same as vanilla and most other mods. What is different about planetfall, just a blanket percent decrease in upgrade cost compared to vanilla?
7. I know this is probably pretty far down on your list, and I've already complained about this before (sorry!) but city placement remains god-awful.
I agree with you. There are two ways to sort the list: important to gameplay, and easy to implement. Unfortunately this is important to gameplay and hard to implement. There are three places to change, which have completely unrelated code: each mapscript for initial placement, and the internal AI for deciding where to place colonies. (Neither mapscript uses the internal AI.) We will fix this, I just don't know when.
8. Really minor quibble, but the tech that lets you build a library immediately precedes the tech that lets you build the observatory.
Excellent point. We'll spread them out.
9. It would be absolutely amazing if terraforming lead to the development of oceans and lakes as mentioned above.
We have a graphic for "raincloud" which I plan to launch from Reservoirs of Liet, like sandstorms launch from deep desert today. For lakes, we could also add the existing Oasis feature, and for the very late game, actual lakes using the vanilla water graphics. I agree this would be cool. The implementation of terraforming is all in python and it has gotten fairly complex. I may try to move some of this into the sdk; expanding the Fresh Water data stored on the map will make a lot of the complexity go away. Stay tuned!
We do appreciate the feedback, please write more! We have used a convention for providing feedback which may seem strange, but will help us make sure all feedback is addressed. Next time you give feedback with a numbered list, could you start the list at 10? In other words, across all your posts, please use a unique number for each feedback instead of starting over at 1.