Community Civ V [CCV]

Arralen · Dec 17, 2010

4.29H+ patch A
.. seems to run fine - at least I was able to continue without any crashes 'til 350BC.

I found some oddities, though:

- Warriors of the celtic empire upgrade to Axemen, not Gallic Warriors (which are supposed to replace them)

- "view (scale) slider" from bug-interface messes with the topmost event icon on the right side when run in 1280x1024

- Great Library is way too good: with +25 research, it easily (more than) doubles the research output of a capitol, and adds 1/3 or more to the total research output

- Upgrading units with high xp gives strange results: Warrior (Combat I, II, II : 8/13 XP) upgrades to Spearman 4/13 XP ... with only barracks present (3 XP); 4/13 does not correspond to 3 promotions, nor barracks !?

- AI has troubles to get out of "minor" status; dunno if this is because of lack in research (at least one has the same points as me), or some bug?

- it's too easy to get lots of money: 500BC, I'm having quite more then the free amount of units, but am still running 90% research

I have some more remarks, which are a more a matter of preference then actual oddities, about

map

You said it's a "huge" game, yet I'm only playing on a "large PerfectWorld2g" map.
That map seems to produce too small continents (like sea level "high"), but big jungles and tundra/taiga areas simulating mountain highlands and too many ressource plots, surrounded by vast empty (= boring) water stretches.
All that damaging terrain makes barbarians pretty tame, it seems, and the regular AI too, as the scouts and warriors seem to die off before "accomplishing" anything.

The big oceans wouldn't be that bad with some changes to the ships:

ships

Have you ever thought about making all ships a bit faster - maybe as fast, or even faster, than mounted units on unpaved roads? I've read 'bout historical sources which tell that even mounted messengers couldn't outpace the vikings sailing up the rivers enough to give meaningful warning ... and game-wise, it would make coastal shipping much more interesting and less tedious

Oh, speaking of Vikings - they had "LongShips" ("Langschiffe" in German), not "Longboats" ("Beiboote" in German) .. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longboat )

And while we're looking at "sailing up the Seine" .. why not make all sailing ships able to explore enemy territory? Historically, until the age of the ironclad, there was nothing one could do against ships sailing along the coast, other than putting ships to sea and trying to sink those strangers - why not portray that in game, and make early shipping much more useful, which normally is "shut down" by cultural borders quite fast.
It was only in the age of ironclads that diplomatic structures (and artillery ranges

) grew to such an extent that coastal shipping could be (somewhat) effectivly "prohibited".

But, as I said, this is pretty much a thing of personal preference ...

PS: How does one get the "eskimo" promotion? I really really need it because nearly the whole middle of the main continent is mountain-framed "highland" (tundra/taiga), which kills off all my scouts ...

Thomas SG · Dec 17, 2010

Arralen said:
4.29H+ patch A
.. seems to run fine - at least I was able to continue without any crashes 'til 350BC.

I found some oddities, though:

- Warriors of the celtic empire upgrade to Axemen, not Gallic Warriors (which are supposed to replace them)

A mistake in CIV4CivilizationInfos. Also for the highlander.

Arralen said:
- "view (scale) slider" from bug-interface messes with the topmost event icon on the right side when run in 1280x1024

Could you upload a screen shot?

Arralen said:
- Great Library is way too good: with +25 research, it easily (more than) doubles the research output of a capitol, and adds 1/3 or more to the total research output

I'll think about it.

Arralen said:
- Upgrading units with high xp gives strange results: Warrior (Combat I, II, II : 8/13 XP) upgrades to Spearman 4/13 XP ... with only barracks present (3 XP); 4/13 does not correspond to 3 promotions, nor barracks !?

CCV feature! BTS reduces the XP to a constant value of 10XP. In CCV the reduction depends on the highest (possible) promotion level. If you use your XP or store them makes no difference! The reduction is the same.

8/13, okay you have got a charismatic leader. So it goes 2/4/8/13/... XP. So the needed XP difference between the last promotion (8XP) and the promotion before (4XP) is == 4XP. That's the reduction. And so the unit will have 8XP - 4XP = 4XP after the upgrade.

Lets say your unit had already 9XP. So it will have after the upgrade 5XP.
Lets say your unit had already 15XP. So it will have after the upgrade 10XP.

Arralen said:
PS: How does one get the "eskimo" promotion? I really really need it because nearly the whole middle of the main continent is mountain-framed "highland" (tundra/taiga), which kills off all my scouts ...

They shouldn't be killed! The terrain damage is linked to the current :strength:

. No unit should be killed by terrain or feature damage. To get the eskimo promotion you need to train your scout/unit in a city that owns a plot of tundra/taiga. Or you must have a fight in this terrain. Both gives your soldiers the needed terrain experience for the next eskimo promotion level.

Thomas SG · Dec 17, 2010

Arralen said:
map

You said it's a "huge" game, yet I'm only playing on a "large PerfectWorld2g" map.
That map seems to produce too small continents (like sea level "high"), but big jungles and tundra/taiga areas simulating mountain highlands and too many ressource plots, surrounded by vast empty (= boring) water stretches.
All that damaging terrain makes barbarians pretty tame, it seems, and the regular AI too, as the scouts and warriors seem to die off before "accomplishing" anything.

The big oceans wouldn't be that bad with some changes to the ships:

I don't make maps. Sorry. I just try to make them work with the new map sizes of CCV.

Arralen said:
ships

Have you ever thought about making all ships a bit faster - maybe as fast, or even faster, than mounted units on unpaved roads? I've read 'bout historical sources which tell that even mounted messengers couldn't outpace the vikings sailing up the rivers enough to give meaningful warning ... and game-wise, it would make coastal shipping much more interesting and less tedious

...

And while we're looking at "sailing up the Seine" .. why not make all sailing ships able to explore enemy territory? Historically, until the age of the ironclad, there was nothing one could do against ships sailing along the coast, other than putting ships to sea and trying to sink those strangers - why not portray that in game, and make early shipping much more useful, which normally is "shut down" by cultural borders quite fast.
It was only in the age of ironclads that diplomatic structures (and artillery ranges ) grew to such an extent that coastal shipping could be (somewhat) effectivly "prohibited".

Faster? Maybe. But I wanted to take the capability to explore enemy territory away from all ships. Ooops. Just submarines should keep it. I wanted to allow to move through foreign waters without declaring war until the owner has discovered constitution. Furthermore I wanted to couple the option "peace fixes borders" with the discover of constitution. So peace should fix the owner of a plot if the owner has discovered constitution.

Thomas SG · Dec 17, 2010

Patch I for 4.29H++ is online.

Arralen · Dec 18, 2010

Thanks for the quick answer, and thanks again for the mod - it's been ages that I played plain BtS because it got boring, but now I'm having a blast again

Thomas SG said:
Warriors of the celtic empire upgrade to Axemen, not Gallic Warriors (which are supposed to replace them)

Click to expand...

A mistake in CIV4CivilizationInfos. Also for the highlander.

Hotfix ?

"view (scale) slider" from bug-interface messes with the topmost event icon on the right side when run in 1280x1024

Click to expand...

Could you upload a screen shot?

Great Library is way too good: with +25 research, it easily (more than) doubles the research output of a capitol, ...

Click to expand...

I'll think about it.

Actually, the free scientist (IIRC) and the "Great People"-points vs. great scientists compound to the balance problem - image an academy in the same city ...

Upgrading units with high xp gives strange results: Warrior (Combat I, II, II : 8/13 XP) upgrades to Spearman 4/13 XP

Click to expand...

CCV feature! .. *snip* ..

So you're saying having a 3-promotion unit with 4XP is ok - what happens when it gets to 8XP again, do I get the 4th promotion "at a discount price"?
Btw., a unit with the leader promotion (or how it is called) didn't suffer any XP reduction when I upgraded it (at discount gold price, that worked ok)!?

AI has troubles to get out of "minor" status

Click to expand...

*nothing*

You didn't comment on this observation - is there anything I overlooked? I played that game until 70A.D., and all the AI I met (3 or 4) where still in the "minor" state - surely at least one of them must have researched writing by then?
Started a new game without the option, and everything seems fine at least in that regard ...

it's too easy to get lots of money

Click to expand...

*no answer to this either ..

.. tracked it down to the (IIRC) 100% conversion rate when building wealth. Obviously, having a very high conversion rate makes it possible to pay a nice army and run 100% research as soon as you have 2 minor cities to "spare". Btw., this makes buildings and plot improvements other then mines rather unattractive ...

mountain-framed "highland" (tundra/taiga), which kills off all my scouts ...

Click to expand...

They shouldn't be killed! The terrain damage is linked to the current . No unit should be killed by terrain or feature damage.

Oh, right, they don't get killed, they only drop down to 0.1 strength, so everything kills them :rolleyes:

And I'm not sure, but it seems to me the AI can't really cope with this, too ...

PerfectWorld2g" map.

Click to expand...

I don't make maps. Sorry. I just try to make them work with the new map sizes of CCV.

Ha! So you do fiddle with them

Actually, it might be that when changing the sizes something goes wrong with the sizing of continents and jungle/mountain highland areas ...

ships

Click to expand...

I wanted to allow to move through foreign waters without declaring war until the owner has discovered constitution. Furthermore I wanted to couple the option "peace fixes borders" with the discover of constitution. So peace should fix the owner of a plot if the owner has discovered constitution.

Wow.
A very elegent, yet quite complex solution - if you get it to work

On the other hand, giving the "explore" ability to all sailing ships would have pretty much the same effect - as soon as the Gunboat (coastal defense craft) and Guns ("real" artillery) comes into play, that free roaming of ships has an end - in-game because players will upgrade their ships as soon as they can, and historically while not spot-on it's "quite correct" ... and it IMHO would achieve pretty much the same as your complicated construction

Btw., could you maybe reduce the size of the graphics for the special events?
It seems a bit too much ... and I'm running 1280x1024 .. what happens at 1024x768 :eek:

Thomas SG · Dec 18, 2010

Arralen said:
Hotfix ?

No problem. I'll offer a patch B. If you want to solve it yourself edit CIV4CivilizationInfos in .../Community Civ V/Assets/XML/Civilizations/... . Search for the config of the Celtic nation. It must look like this:

PHP:

...
			<Buildings>
				<Building>
					<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_WALLS</BuildingClassType>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_CELTIC_DUN</BuildingType>
				</Building>
			</Buildings>
			<Units>
				<Unit>
					<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_AXEMAN</UnitClassType>
					<UnitType>UNIT_CELTIC_GALLIC_WARRIOR</UnitType>
				</Unit>
				<Unit>
					<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_SWORDSMAN</UnitClassType>
					<UnitType>UNIT_CELTIC_HIGHLANDER</UnitType>
				</Unit>
			</Units>
			<FreeUnitClasses>
				<FreeUnitClass>
					<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_SETTLER</UnitClassType>
					<iFreeUnits>1</iFreeUnits>
				</FreeUnitClass>
			</FreeUnitClasses>
...

The UNITCLASS_ was wrong.

Arralen said:

I've never seen those buttons? Where do they come from? What are they good for?

Arralen said:
Actually, the free scientist (IIRC) and the "Great People"-points vs. great scientists compound to the balance problem - image an academy in the same city ...

The specialists are set to the BASE values. And BASE should be one of the best balanced mods. But I've reduced the GLib from +25% to +20%.

Arralen said:
So you're saying having a 3-promotion unit with 4XP is ok - what happens when it gets to 8XP again, do I get the 4th promotion "at a discount price"?

No. The next promotion is available at 13XP. At 8XP nothing happens.

Arralen said:
Btw., a unit with the leader promotion (or how it is called) didn't suffer any XP reduction when I upgraded it (at discount gold price, that worked ok)!?

Feature.

Arralen said:
You didn't comment on this observation - is there anything I overlooked? I played that game until 70A.D., and all the AI I met (3 or 4) where still in the "minor" state - surely at least one of them must have researched writing by then?
Started a new game without the option, and everything seems fine at least in that regard ...

No comment because I will have to run and watch some AI autoplay games first.

Arralen said:
.. tracked it down to the (IIRC) 100% conversion rate when building wealth. Obviously, having a very high conversion rate makes it possible to pay a nice army and run 100% research as soon as you have 2 minor cities to "spare". Btw., this makes buildings and plot improvements other then mines rather unattractive ...

Typically you should have more financial trouble in CCV. Maybe I need some balance assistence.

Arralen said:
Oh, right, they don't get killed, they only drop down to 0.1 strength, so everything kills them And I'm not sure, but it seems to me the AI can't really cope with this, too ...

I have written new code for the AI. The AI analysis the near terrain. Looks for near goodies. And weights the plot damage rate, the current unit damage rate and the heal rates of near plots. Yes, the AI really knows about the terrain damage and the consequences. The AI even calculates paths with an eye on the damage. Exploration is no AI suicide mission. Not if it is not worth it.

Arralen said:
Ha! So you do fiddle with them
Actually, it might be that when changing the sizes something goes wrong with the sizing of continents and jungle/mountain highland areas ...

I'll check all map types again. There may be a problem with the XXXXL map type. But all others are okay.

Arralen said:
Wow.
A very elegent, yet quite complex solution - if you get it to work

This is so easy. I think 20 code lines will do.

Arralen said:
On the other hand, giving the "explore" ability to all sailing ships would have pretty much the same effect - as soon as the Gunboat (coastal defense craft) and Guns ("real" artillery) comes into play, that free roaming of ships has an end - in-game because players will upgrade their ships as soon as they can, and historically while not spot-on it's "quite correct" ... and it IMHO would achieve pretty much the same as your complicated construction

No. Humans could maybe use it for a better preparation of sea invasions with older transport ships.

Arralen said:
Btw., could you maybe reduce the size of the graphics for the special events?
It seems a bit too much ... and I'm running 1280x1024 .. what happens at 1024x768

I don't know what happens. But I can have a look at the pictures.

EDIT: The pictures seem to have a constant size of 256x256 pixels.

PoliticalMonkey · Dec 18, 2010

Just wanted to say that I have been playing this mod for the past few weeks and have really been enjoying it. Good work! I cannot wait to see what else gets put in.

Arralen · Dec 19, 2010

Thomas SG said:
I've never seen those buttons? Where do they come from? What are they good for?

Those are the "standard" Civ4 event buttons .. if you've never seen those .. what did you do to your Civ ?! :eek:

.. AI not getting out of minor status ..

Click to expand...

No comment because I will have to run and watch some AI autoplay games first.

I switched to plusplus now, and it worked (new game, same mapscript)

I'll check all map types again. There may be a problem with the XXXXL map type. But all others are okay.

I only had the problem with the "PerfectWorld2g" script, and size was "Large", not XXXXXL ...

Event pics, and resulting from it, event windows are a bit big...

Click to expand...

I don't know what happens. But I can have a look at the pictures. EDIT: The pictures seem to have a constant size of 256x256 pixels.

The size in the screenshot is 1:1 ... 50% or 68% would suffice, wouldn't they?

I was about to post oddities from the plusplus version, but it just dawned to me that I forgot to add the latest patch ... :crazyeye:

Thomas SG · Dec 19, 2010

Arralen said:
Those are the "standard" Civ4 event buttons .. if you've never seen those .. what did you do to your Civ ?!

Event buttons?

Arralen said:
I switched to plusplus now, and it worked (new game, same mapscript)

Arralen said:
I only had the problem with the "PerfectWorld2g" script, and size was "Large", not XXXXXL ...

There may be a problem. No doubt. But if it's not the XXXXL map it's not my fault. And all settings up to XL map are set to default. I've done no change. We will have to contact the creator of the map.

Arralen said:
The size in the screenshot is 1:1 ... 50% or 68% would suffice, wouldn't they?

Smaller would be okay. But I don't know if the game needs a special size. And I'm too lazy to change them. I can do better things. :rolleyes:

Arralen · Dec 19, 2010

Thomas SG said:
Event buttons?

You're kidding, right? You must have seen those before .. actually, they're "empty build/research queue buttons", rather than "event buttons" ... they show up if a research/build is completed and the queue is emtpy, and let you jump to the appropiate city/research screen.

Speaking of kidding ... guess you did that when you wrote that you wheren't interested in (back)porting Civ5 features to Civ4, right?

Or why has the AI a 7-stack of bowmen sitting right next to one of my cities, with two of them "attacking" my best defense unit each turn, causing collateral damage, but retreating from combat with 100%, giving and maybe gaining no XP doing this?
Must be a cheap version of that ****** Civ5 "feature" of tactical shooting on the strategic map :vomit:

Worst thing is - I can't find a button to let my own archers do the same?!?

Thomas SG · Dec 19, 2010

Arralen said:
You're kidding, right? You must have seen those before .. actually, they're "empty build/research queue buttons", rather than "event buttons" ... they show up if a research/build is completed and the queue is emtpy, and let you jump to the appropiate city/research screen.

Speaking of kidding ... guess you did that when you wrote that you wheren't interested in (back)porting Civ5 features to Civ4, right?

Or why has the AI a 7-stack of bowmen sitting right next to one of my cities, with two of them "attacking" my best defense unit each turn, causing collateral damage, but retreating from combat with 100%, giving and maybe gaining no XP doing this?
Must be a cheap version of that ****** Civ5 "feature" of tactical shooting on the strategic map
Worst thing is - I can't find a button to let my own archers do the same?!?

I don't play. I really don't know these buttons. I've never seen them. Really. No joke. I'm just a code monkey...

And no it is not a cheap version of that ****** Civ5 "feature" of tactical shooting on the strategic map! FSA == First Strike Attack was already a part of CCV when nobody knew that Civ V is coming. And FSA is much better and more realistic concept than DCM's range bombard or what ever they have done in Civ V. You just have to understand the rules. But maybe you are right. I may still have to teach the AI to use it smarter. And the button is shown here.

Let me give you an example. Important are the basic first strike chances of the best defender and the attacking unit (and the real weapon range). Promotions are unimportant for the decision if you can FSA or not. They are important for the damage result but that's it. The basic FSAs are the weapon range trigger for units of real weapon range == 0.

So lets say you have two units - an archer and a longswordsman. Your enemy has two archers. So for your enemy the best defender is for sure your longswordsman. The enemy archers have a higher basic first strike range than the longswordsman and so they can do a FSA against your longswordsman. But you can do nothing similar! Your longswordsman has no firststrikes and your archer is not better than the enemy archers. When the enemy archers are in weapon range your archer is in their weapon range too. And so they can shoot back. That's no FSA. That's a real combat. So no FSA for you. The FSA button is not shown. But if you had a longbowman you could shoot back. Because of better basic firststrikes of the longbowman.

This is the way FSA works for units with weapon range 0. If the real weapon range is 1 or 2 (heavy artillery or missile armed) the rules are bit different. A missile armed unit will always be able to FSA a unit without missiles. Even if the unit is only one plot away and has a real weapon range of 1. So a missile cruiser can always FSA a battleship although both have 2 basic firststrikes.

bonta · Dec 19, 2010

Arralen said:
You're kidding, right? You must have seen those before .. actually, they're "empty build/research queue buttons", rather than "event buttons" ... they show up if a research/build is completed and the queue is emtpy, and let you jump to the appropiate city/research screen.

Those are enabled by the game option "Minimize Pop-Ups", have never seen them before as well, so I guess they are disabled by default.

Thomas SG · Dec 20, 2010

bonta said:
Those are enabled by the game option "Minimize Pop-Ups", have never seen them before as well, so I guess they are disabled by default.

What a cool function.

Bug fixed. Moved the slider to the left side and moved the commerce buttons down if slider is shown.

sav · Dec 20, 2010

I really liked this mod, but it just didn't agree with my computer. Too many random crashes, then corrupted saves that stopped me soldiering on... back to Quot Capita I guess...

Nineliveslost · Dec 21, 2010

ok, cant win the game. Already succeeded with the United nation vote (diplomatic victory), but the game kept going without asking me if i wanted to continue. I keep building pieces of the spaceship and launching but at random times a component has to be rebuilt after launch and then I have to relaunch the ship. I control 59% of population and culture. I also have 4 top legendary cities.... Any help?

Thomas SG · Dec 21, 2010

Nineliveslost said:
ok, cant win the game. Already succeeded with the United nation vote (diplomatic victory), but the game kept going without asking me if i wanted to continue. I keep building pieces of the spaceship and launching but at random times a component has to be rebuilt after launch and then I have to relaunch the ship. I control 59% of population and culture. I also have 4 top legendary cities.... Any help?

You can win but you haven't at the moment!

The reason is the Mastery Victory! Did you start a "Custom Game"? Have you disabled the victory type? If not you must collect score points to win and play till the last turn. You get points for religious influence, population, terrain, space ship, culture,... . It's an overall victory. And it goes over the full turn distance. Click the victory button! What does it tell you? If I'm right it tells you in detail about your current score and the scores of your best rival.

But can you upload a save please? What CCV version are we talking about? Usualy you shouldn't be able to have votes for diplomatic victory when Mastery Victory is enabled since version CCV 4.29H+. And I think I must modify the spaceship too.

Thomas SG · Dec 21, 2010

sav said:
I really liked this mod, but it just didn't agree with my computer. Too many random crashes, then corrupted saves that stopped me soldiering on... back to Quot Capita I guess...

Okay. I'm uploading an unpacked version of CCV 4.30 for you and others with low end computers at the moment. Please try it. Give me a chance. The load time will be terrible but the game performance will be better. The system requirements should be similar to BTS. I hope it solves your random crashes. The code should be CTD free. And I have never seen a corrupted save. But some saves are so big that you cannot reload them from the game! That's true. I know. I've seen it myself.

Nineliveslost · Dec 21, 2010

sure enough I have Master Victory... it shows passed next to the UN Diplo victory... Spaceship makes me build various components after the launch and then it shows a new launch.... I have no idea how to upload a saved game, but you just saved me days of frustration with the "mastery victory" answer

Thomas SG · Dec 21, 2010

Nineliveslost said:
sure enough I have Master Victory... it shows passed next to the UN Diplo victory... Spaceship makes me build various components after the launch and then it shows a new launch.... I have no idea how to upload a saved game, but you just saved me days of frustration with the "mastery victory" answer

If you are far on top you may like to finish the game without wasting your time? Use the AI autoplay function. Press Ctrl + Alt + X.

CCV version? And to upload a save is easy. Under the window for new posts (the window I'm writing in at the moment) is a section "Attached Files" and a button "Manage Attachments". Push the button. A new window will open. Search for the save on your HDD and upload it. When the upload is finished you will see it as an attachment to the post.

Nineliveslost · Dec 21, 2010

4.29h version and i added the saved game....nope. it says the file is 2.3 megabytes and exceeds the 2.0 megabyte max

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