Godlike deity players lose when...

I have developed an inflated ego regarding ciV now that I regularly play and win on deity. However, to keep this in check, I believe it's time for all the high level players to fess up: when do you lose? What are the conditions in which you just say, "oh dear god, not again!"

As the first to confess, I have to say meeting Shaka within ten turns. I know, I know, just bribe him to war against someone else. Sometimes, ladies and gentlemen, you just don't have the money. I have gotten turn-45-rolled by a near warmonger more times than I can count.

A close second: trying to get a culture victory. I usually make it to about 250 turns into a game. I have the Internet. I have dug up the planet. I have won the international games. However: Poland is about to can-into-space. The Iroquois have settled even Antarctica and are two capitals away from a Dom Vic. And there's always one stupid AI who isn't even close to winning the game with whom I cannot become influential. (I'm lookin at you, Brazil!). I look at the current rate of tourism and say "all right, ten turns and I'll have him. Three turns later, I look at the tourism screen and say, "all right, ten turns and I'll have him." Ad nauseum. Then the balloon goes up - Hiawatha attacks and Poland is off playing beyond earth.

What is your particular Achilles heel?

If Deity is too easy for you, try Acken's mod. Good luck!

I've never lost on unmodded deity ever since I learned how to play deity properly. If Shaka is next door, CB or even archer rush him.

I can play and beat Deity but I don't consider myself "godlike" lol. The reason being I haven't played it enough and with enough civs to answer your question properly.

Only games I've lost are early rushes though. I've always found winning science pretty easy even against Sejong. Basically if I can survive and build a few cities I usually win. I only play culture if I think I can win culture but I never invest so much into it that I can't also win science since I want to have the fallback of SV if I can't overcome everyone in time. I also never try for diplo, just keep the AI from getting it. The loss in most recent memory is an early rush by France that toppled my capital. He forward settled me and built an 20-unit army with tons of swords and comps very early. I saw it coming and even had an early army to defend with comps, a horse, and a few melee for walling+walls. The terrain for my capital was just too vulnerable though. My melee guarding the front fell too early and resupply was cut off as they surrounded the capital. And that was it. After that game I realized why so many Deity players want to settle on hills

Sclb, that strategy works in theory but I've never been able to produce a large enough early army to rush Shaka before he builds up and rushes me on these high levels. At least not without totally forgetting about science for a while and probably a few settler spots. AI get such a huge discount on support and hammer costs for troops. Do you wait, defend, then counter-rush? I could see that working.That's usually my solution to shut down a warmonger neighbor but due to their huge troop numbers it usually only works if you can destroy their army as they attack you then punish them so they can't try it again by counter-rushing and taking cities. That said defending against early rushes is an experience thing, I feel I've gotten better at it though I'd not claim I've got it covered in all situations. Choosing a good border city spot so they have a harder time is a pretty good plan. Something with hills and mountains is very hard to take and can be all you need to break these rushes. I've heard several players recommend this. I actually bribe a lot less these days unless it is dirt cheap. If I think I can survive the rush I'll just let them attack me. I love the fun of fighting a war and getting high promos is good security for later wars.

danaphanous said:

Sclb, that strategy works in theory but I've never been able to produce a large enough early army to rush Shaka before he builds up and rushes me on these high levels

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I've never failed a CB rush against Shaka, even after hard building 2 settlers. I love having him in my games though (if he doesn't start directly next to me). He is probably the cheapest Civ to bribe. It's like starting the game with your own personal mercenary army.

Play as Ghandi against 9 Attila's on a team against you on a tiny great plains map? Marathon speed?

sugerdady87 said:

I've never failed a CB rush against Shaka, even after hard building 2 settlers. I love having him in my games though (if he doesn't start directly next to me). He is probably the cheapest Civ to bribe. It's like starting the game with your own personal mercenary army.

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I probably just don't sink enough early hammers into troops then. I'm always afraid it'll set me back and knock me off track. That and I don't like attacking neighbors building a rush army when they already have 15+ troops by turn 50. So I wait to defend then counter-rush. They do kinda suck at tactics though so it might not be as bad as I think. I may try this if you both say it works reliably. Do you bribe someone else to fight with you before you join or go it alone? and what is your build order? Do you immediately build troops in your expos? What number and composition do you guys aim for to take out a Deity neighbor with a large standing army? I'm presuming you do this before neighbor gets pikemen correct, so maybe aim for attacking between turns 50-80? Do you overbuild archers and upgrade or wait till comps and hard-build them?

My guess for numbers for a comp rush on Deity where I'd expect at least a 10 unit resistance force due to the level would be 1-2 horse for scouting/pillaging and sniping archers. 3-4 spearmen/swords for walling my comps from the resistance while I clean up, 5-6 comps for focus-firing units and cities behind the melee wall, and 0-1 catapult. I build one early if I expect a very resistant capital that will be bloody to take. Haven't practiced these rushes much on Deity though due to caution so let me know if numbers are off for that level.

danaphanous said:

I probably just don't sink enough early hammers into troops then. I'm always afraid it'll set me back and knock me off track.

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When you play enough deity games, you'll be able to tell whether a nearby AI is a threat or not. If they are, they'll usually covet your land as soon as you meet them and they will usually forward settle you. In many cases, bribing them to war is usually gonna cost you a lot and it's better to just set up defenses or even try to kill them offensively. You won't be beating speed records but remember science means nothing when you're dead. You need to be spamming archers after your 2 expos and upgrade when you get the tech if you want to pull off a successful CB rush.

To be honest, most of the games I have lost on deity are when I try the slightly more unconventional strategies posted on civfanatics!

I tried the "small" piety build half a dozen times, always failed miserably
I've tried Honor - Commerce - Autocracy and always fall too far behind in tech.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Tradition-alist, I enjoy both honor and liberty domination games, but any strategy that doesn't involve a heavy and game-long commitment to science never works for me.

The other games I lose seem to be similar to others here, which are the ones where you spawn next to a war-mongerer (or 2!) who simply can't be bribed. It doesn't happen too often, but it's pretty hard to find a way out when they send the carpet of doom on turn 60. One of the reasons I prefer fractal over pangaea is there seems to be more natural choke-points to protect against that kind of thing

I am relieved to hear I'm not the only one who scrubs against early rushes. I let getting a fast NC stick in my mind too much probably. I'll cut time for each city to produce an extra unit if I see Shaka or atilla, but then my brains begin screaming about getting libraries finished for a pre-turn 100 NC. Reading the posts above though, I get the same sense as danaphanous - that you just have to say to heck with it and fight.

@sclb & sugardaddy: how do you compensate in the mid game for the setback in science?

Primacide said:

I am relieved to hear I'm not the only one who scrubs against early rushes. I let getting a fast NC stick in my mind too much probably. I'll cut time for each city to produce an extra unit if I see Shaka or atilla, but then my brains begin screaming about getting libraries finished for a pre-turn 100 NC

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I'm not the best at fending off rushes, but it's probably worth getting construction before libraries so that you have comp bows. Maybe even iron working for a more tanky melee unit. I don't think it would slow you down so much that you can't win the game.

Marbozir actually had a decent early game aggression guide, one of the things I learnt from that is that the AI will often offer peace after like 10 turns, even if they are doing well enough to take a city

I played a terra game as spain with two cities on the mainland. Conquored the entire new world (and four natural wonders) except England got a city in the tundra.

Spent the entire game giving Shaka 1-3 gpt and 0-3 horses to attack whoever was threatening me at the time. For some reason I couldn't give him 9 gpt and 9 horses to declare war on three civs, but if I did it individually he'd be cool with it.

Primacide said:

I am relieved to hear I'm not the only one who scrubs against early rushes. I let getting a fast NC stick in my mind too much probably.

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I recently accepted this as well. I saw an Acken game where he Comp Bow'ed ahead of NC and that had never even occurred to me. Since then, I've done a lot better at earlier domination. Because the troops keep fighting as you're teching/building other things I think is the mentality.

Dushku said:

Because the troops keep fighting as you're teching/building other things I think is the mentality.

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All the while getting that sweet, sweet experience

It's often worth beginning the war before you plant to take cities, just so you can level up your troops and pick off a few enemy units

Did any of the CDL games have Shaka as a neighbor?

danaphanous said:

So I wait to defend then counter-rush.

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I tend to do this too, but then I am poor at early conquest. But even with Shaka, three swords and three CBs should be enough to save your city closest to him. Just don’t attack with the swords, have them fortify in front of your city while your three CBs do the work. By the time you get to Longswords and XB, you should be in fine shape. He will still only have the Impi.

I just won my first domination victory on deity as Elizabeth I. I've nicked a few diplomatics but never owned the world by warfare until just now.

I'm not godlike, I normally just lose because I get swamped by tanks when I'm in the medieval era, but tonight I don't care, because I finally did it.

Just had to register to share that. Probably in an inappropriate thread, but tough. Woo hoo.

Anyway, as you were.

beetle said:

Did any of the CDL games have Shaka as a neighbor?

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Yes, several of them did, the one that come to my mind is the infamous Sweden one.

Yeah I lost that game. Ta heck with you, Sweden.

(@needles: congratulations! I shamelessly posted when I won first as well

Sclb said:

Yes, several of them did, the one that come to my mind is the infamous Sweden one.

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you can say that again, that really was infamous

Not godlike, but one scenario is hard to beat: Continents, you try peaceful but a runaway civ on another continent with high expansion flavour gobbles up 2-3 neighbours and goes for science victory.

Happened to me with Persia, I think he launched around t220.