grandad1982
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Go go Optional!
Von Münchhausen II
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Deity
No rest for the wicked, eh? Okay, the turnlog:
turn 0: Warrior north, settler jumps on hill.
turn 1: Settle Sukhotai > build scout.
Warrior bags ruin; Animal Husbandry! A 4-pack of horses pops up in Sukhotai's second ring. Okay then!
The warrior also reveals a blue CS border north of us. I'll try avoid meeting this CS, as we may want to ally them later (the earlier you meet a CS, the earlier they come up with a 'Kill my Neighbour' request, and then they become very expensive in upkeep).
turn 2: horsehockye! The CS is on a hill, they're spotting me already.
It's Sidney, maritime, neutral, incense. Worth saving up for.
turn 3: Bag a ruin. 55 gold.
turn 4: Meet Gandhi! His scout appears to have come north of Sidney.
turn 5: Turning a bit south with the warrior now, I don't want to take him where Gandhi's scout came from.
turn 6:Gandhi is already friendly towards us, need to keep an eye on him for when he gets Writing (sell borders mainly).
Sukhotai: scout > scout - second scout intended for cheap defense mainly.
First scout goes south, revealing coast.
turn 7: Both warrior and scout are revealing ruins this turn. Nice. I believe it also means we have space. With others nearby we wouldn't have found so many ruins.
turn 8: With Sukhotai about to grow, I want to wait a turn with snapping up the ruins, but with the scout I have no choice; Gandhi's scout is only one tile short of that ruin, so I need to collect it now.
Oh no, I had hoped this wouldn't happen: 20 culture. The decision is up to me which first SP to pick. With no consensus in the team, I go Tradition, border expansion in the capital being my main motive. Sukhotai will now get the horses in in 2 turns instead of 8 turns, I would rather work that than a river grassland. It'll speed up the worker, I doubt whether Liberty would catch up later. The first advantage is for Tradition.
turn 9: I postponed the ruin with the warrior last turn, but Sukhotai has now grown, so now I'll take it. It's no citizen, though, instead it's a tech: Trapping!
Interesting, with that you could try pulling off a free Civil Service with the Great Library, need to keep that in the back of our minds.
The new citizen in Sukhotai went to the hill, as I had set Sukhotai on production with that effect in mind. It means the second scout is already built, that took only 3 turns. New citizen moves to a foody river tile straight away, of course, bit of micromanagement.
Sukhotai > worker.
turn 10: Scout bags ruin and we get an extra citizen! Great, we now have 1 citizen on the river-stone, 1 on the horses and 1 on a river-grass.
Mining is in, that's why I stop here. We know 3 techs; Mining, Animal Husbandry and Trapping. We know Gandhi and haven't met anybody else yet. We seem to have space around us. All looks very good.
turn 0: Warrior north, settler jumps on hill.
turn 1: Settle Sukhotai > build scout.
Warrior bags ruin; Animal Husbandry! A 4-pack of horses pops up in Sukhotai's second ring. Okay then!
The warrior also reveals a blue CS border north of us. I'll try avoid meeting this CS, as we may want to ally them later (the earlier you meet a CS, the earlier they come up with a 'Kill my Neighbour' request, and then they become very expensive in upkeep).
turn 2: horsehockye! The CS is on a hill, they're spotting me already.
It's Sidney, maritime, neutral, incense. Worth saving up for.
turn 3: Bag a ruin. 55 gold.
Spoiler :
turn 4: Meet Gandhi! His scout appears to have come north of Sidney.
turn 5: Turning a bit south with the warrior now, I don't want to take him where Gandhi's scout came from.
turn 6:Gandhi is already friendly towards us, need to keep an eye on him for when he gets Writing (sell borders mainly).
Sukhotai: scout > scout - second scout intended for cheap defense mainly.
First scout goes south, revealing coast.
turn 7: Both warrior and scout are revealing ruins this turn. Nice. I believe it also means we have space. With others nearby we wouldn't have found so many ruins.
turn 8: With Sukhotai about to grow, I want to wait a turn with snapping up the ruins, but with the scout I have no choice; Gandhi's scout is only one tile short of that ruin, so I need to collect it now.
Oh no, I had hoped this wouldn't happen: 20 culture. The decision is up to me which first SP to pick. With no consensus in the team, I go Tradition, border expansion in the capital being my main motive. Sukhotai will now get the horses in in 2 turns instead of 8 turns, I would rather work that than a river grassland. It'll speed up the worker, I doubt whether Liberty would catch up later. The first advantage is for Tradition.
turn 9: I postponed the ruin with the warrior last turn, but Sukhotai has now grown, so now I'll take it. It's no citizen, though, instead it's a tech: Trapping!
Interesting, with that you could try pulling off a free Civil Service with the Great Library, need to keep that in the back of our minds.
The new citizen in Sukhotai went to the hill, as I had set Sukhotai on production with that effect in mind. It means the second scout is already built, that took only 3 turns. New citizen moves to a foody river tile straight away, of course, bit of micromanagement.
Sukhotai > worker.
Spoiler :
turn 10: Scout bags ruin and we get an extra citizen! Great, we now have 1 citizen on the river-stone, 1 on the horses and 1 on a river-grass.
Mining is in, that's why I stop here. We know 3 techs; Mining, Animal Husbandry and Trapping. We know Gandhi and haven't met anybody else yet. We seem to have space around us. All looks very good.
grandad1982
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Looks like we're going to have a Gems monopoly!
Thats some sweet hut popping as well. Two free techs! I usually play with them off so this is all very exiting for me.
On tech path I would guess that the options go something like, Masonry > Pottery > Writing or Pottery > Writing > Masonary. Depends how important the extra hammer from the stone is to us.
I guess the only other thing to decide for the next set is what SP we take. Liberty.....?
BTW when I said Landed Elite was rubbish in a previous post I meant Aristocracy. Also I thought there was a river N of us. I've become rubbish at reading screen shots it would seem.
EDIT: Nice set Optional. Its good to have an SG under way again
Thats some sweet hut popping as well. Two free techs! I usually play with them off so this is all very exiting for me.
On tech path I would guess that the options go something like, Masonry > Pottery > Writing or Pottery > Writing > Masonary. Depends how important the extra hammer from the stone is to us.
I guess the only other thing to decide for the next set is what SP we take. Liberty.....?
BTW when I said Landed Elite was rubbish in a previous post I meant Aristocracy. Also I thought there was a river N of us. I've become rubbish at reading screen shots it would seem.
EDIT: Nice set Optional. Its good to have an SG under way again
Optional
Deity
I think with Von Münchhausen I we did 15 turns each the first round, but that was with 4 players. I think 10 is better when you have 6 players, otherwise the game can be halfway when it's player 6's turn.
10 turns is very little in terms of playing time, but a lot can happen in 10 turns in the early game. Also of course you'll be making notes and screenshots, so there's a bit more to it than just playing your turns. I even regularly break my game to ask for team input, I didn't see a reason to do that in this set, but if there's a decision to be made, like some agreement with another civ that lasts for 30 turns, then it's not a strange thing to do. Not needed most of the time, but if you're in doubt, you can always ask others' opinion.
An SG is not about playing as quick as possible. Certainly between sets it's often better to leave some time for most team members to respond to the current save.
Yeah, Great Library or not, that's the question. And which tech are we aiming to pick up if we're going for it? Grandad mentions Masonry, but is that assuming we are not going for the Great Library? I can see the extra hammer from the stone is useful, but for picking up the highest level tech with the GL it's off-route.
Since we've got Trapping, Civil Service seems possible if we research what's it's called, the Oracle tech I mean, forgot the name. But it's more difficult if we take side-steps, obviously.
And here's maybe where some team input is needed before continueing, you can't just assume others have the same idea as you. So then it's needed to stop for a minute and hear what others are saying.
Concensus isn't always reached, if there isn't it's up to the one who's playing, but you do always listen first to others' opinions before making a big decision. The early game has more big decisions than the later game.
10 turns is very little in terms of playing time, but a lot can happen in 10 turns in the early game. Also of course you'll be making notes and screenshots, so there's a bit more to it than just playing your turns. I even regularly break my game to ask for team input, I didn't see a reason to do that in this set, but if there's a decision to be made, like some agreement with another civ that lasts for 30 turns, then it's not a strange thing to do. Not needed most of the time, but if you're in doubt, you can always ask others' opinion.
An SG is not about playing as quick as possible. Certainly between sets it's often better to leave some time for most team members to respond to the current save.
Yeah, Great Library or not, that's the question. And which tech are we aiming to pick up if we're going for it? Grandad mentions Masonry, but is that assuming we are not going for the Great Library? I can see the extra hammer from the stone is useful, but for picking up the highest level tech with the GL it's off-route.
Since we've got Trapping, Civil Service seems possible if we research what's it's called, the Oracle tech I mean, forgot the name. But it's more difficult if we take side-steps, obviously.
And here's maybe where some team input is needed before continueing, you can't just assume others have the same idea as you. So then it's needed to stop for a minute and hear what others are saying.
Concensus isn't always reached, if there isn't it's up to the one who's playing, but you do always listen first to others' opinions before making a big decision. The early game has more big decisions than the later game.
Very nice opener!
Ok, what's next? GLib is mentioned and the tech Masonry, so I can only assume grandad wants that marble hooked up before we start GL? It would need a couple of borderexpansions though, are we willing to pay for one or two?
If we scrap the GL, expansion is the next better move...lots of land out there and we can settle 1-2 cities fairly early, if we want to. Lot's of stuff to consider.
Ok, what's next? GLib is mentioned and the tech Masonry, so I can only assume grandad wants that marble hooked up before we start GL? It would need a couple of borderexpansions though, are we willing to pay for one or two?
If we scrap the GL, expansion is the next better move...lots of land out there and we can settle 1-2 cities fairly early, if we want to. Lot's of stuff to consider.
grandad1982
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When I said about masonry I was thinking about the marble but of course that wound't be in the BFH for quite awhile. Unless we buy the tile of course.
So which GLib tech are we're going to try for? CS or Theo I guess. Cs is needed for both Chivalry and Education so is the more flexible of the two, faster Wats or elephant rush, whilst Theo only goes towards the Wats.
I'm ok with Philosophy before Masonry to be honest.
As gozpel says whats the GLib alternative? Expansion. I already see several nice city sites. I'd like to see more around the gold as well.
So which GLib tech are we're going to try for? CS or Theo I guess. Cs is needed for both Chivalry and Education so is the more flexible of the two, faster Wats or elephant rush, whilst Theo only goes towards the Wats.
I'm ok with Philosophy before Masonry to be honest.
As gozpel says whats the GLib alternative? Expansion. I already see several nice city sites. I'd like to see more around the gold as well.
Optional
Deity
It looks like we have a scout available for snooping around a bit before the worker pops out:
For getting Writing we need Pottery & Writing itself, which stands at 16 turns just now (6 + 10). For an attempt at getting Civil Service as our freeby the only other tech needed is Philosophy, which stands at 19 turns just now, but that would go quicker with another citizen.
For Theology also Calendar is needed, so that's an additional tech.
With automatic expansion Sukhotai will claim another river-grass in 5 turns. After that probably the gems. The worker will probably be there before the gems is in. Of course the horses could first be worked in that case, should make some nice money from selling.
Hopefully we'll know a few more civs than just India by then.
If the worker also does the gems and perhaps does a river-farm he actually has plenty useful stuff to do without buying the marble.
grandad1982
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Yeah worker could chop into GLib (if thats what we do) or in to settlers as well (after Collective Rule maybe). I see 20 or so worker turns already.
I think looking at all the land and luxuries around us then I would be in favour of going for a liberty start and getting 3 or 4 cities down, arriving at education a bit later than a GL beeline but with some well established cities already going on.
I think the gems south east could be a city, not much food but enough to work all of those gems, and with a granary and water mill it could easily grow to have 6 solid tiles to work with before any maritime boosts etc.
Then there's the sugar plantation east, and probably something around the gold to the north aswell.
There are so many things happening on that map, it is quite difficult to break it down, but I think that going for GL without marble we might miss it. I just think of so many luxuries that we can trade away and make a lot of money.
I think the gems south east could be a city, not much food but enough to work all of those gems, and with a granary and water mill it could easily grow to have 6 solid tiles to work with before any maritime boosts etc.
Then there's the sugar plantation east, and probably something around the gold to the north aswell.
There are so many things happening on that map, it is quite difficult to break it down, but I think that going for GL without marble we might miss it. I just think of so many luxuries that we can trade away and make a lot of money.
NotSure
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Gandhi's one of the GL builders too isn't he? Seems like he's either getting that first or the Hanging Gardens. If we try for it and miss it though, we're set up well to build NC with two cities and will have the cash to rush-buy a library to get it going.
We don't have to decide for my turns. I'm going to research Pottery and some of Writing and that will be it for me. I had to work 16 hours yesterday so I didn't get a chance. I've got another 12+ hour workday today, but I'll squeeze the turns in and have it up around this time tomorrow. Sleep now.
We should get the GL vote started though..
I vote yes. If Gandhi gets it we still get the looser gold and can use it to buy a library in the second city and build the NC (if we go straight to Philosophy). If we get it we're in a real strong position with the two free techs we got from ruins. It's hard to pass up.
Optional
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Don't forget we need Masonry for hooking up the marble, that would be an investment of some 10 turns first. We'll get some turns back, but we'll still end up with a slightly later Great Library.
Still it could be fine to do Masonry first, we stand a good chance to get the Great Library anyway, and for happiness or financial reasons Masonry first is better.
What I would like to avoid is having to buy 2 tiles, though. I'm hoping that if we buy 1 towards the marble, it will automatically get picked next. But we don't need it before the gems, and our first worker comes in 10 turns, so there's no rush to do this just now.
A monument would help, our goodies are quite spread out. I think we could do with an extra warrior as well, barbs are on, if a couple of our units continue exploring we could do with an extra guard at home.
Yes, Gandhi is definitely one for the Hanging Gardens, I'm not sure about the Great Library. At least with him we know when he gets Writing if we keep checking the diplo screen.
NotSure
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Turn 10 – No research is chosen, so I pick Pottery with the intention of going straight to Writing.
Turn 11 – We meet Ramesses. His scout comes from the west and snatches the ruin Optimal set up for me. I hate to see this guy. I just played a game as Hiawatha a couple of months ago and this jerk got Hagia Sophia 2 turns before me and then a few turns later blew up Notre Dame and the Porcelain Tower in successive turns with only 2 cities. But I digress…
I head south with our scout and find a consolation ruin.
Turn 12 – We meet Elizabeth. Her battered scout comes from the northeast by the CS borders near the coast. The world is suddenly looking crowded.
England is already protecting Sydney.
Ramesses and Gandhi go to friendly.
Scout grabs that ruin… Scarcher!
Turn 13 – Not much. Barbs start appearing near the capital.
Turn 14 – We meet Hanoi (15 gold – punked again by Ramesses), a neutral militaristic CS with incense. They have no protector, usually a great candidate for a worker steal. It will be at least 10 turns before we see them produce a worker, and I actually like military CS units as Siam. They always come double promoted. You guys decide.
Turn 15 – Barb mauls Elizabeth’s scout right in front of the terrified women and children of Sukhothai.
Social Policy – Liberty. 13 turns until our free settler.
Find the barb camp that’s sprouting murderous brutes. It’s only 5 tiles from the capital. Warrior is on his way back to protect our worker. Find another barb camp to the SE that is blocking off a nice city site that will have river, coast, and silk. I leave it be for that reason and in the hopes that Hanoi will give us some quest love.
Turn 16 – Not much. We smoke the remains of the brute that murdered Elizabeth’s scout with some city bombard and start research on Writing. The fact that none of our “friendly” neighbors have come to us with OB proposals so far is encouraging.
Turn 17 – We meet Warsaw (15 gold), a neutral cultural CS with whales. Warsaw is already under the protection of England and India. Looks like if we want to steal a worker it’s gonna be Hanoi. Maybe we’ll build/buy, but that’s for another day.
Turn 18 – Nothing.
Turn 19 – Nothing.
Turn 20 – Worker out, put him on the horses & put our warrior on him for protection. I don’t pick production for Sukhothai because I suppose there may be discussion. Monument would finish in 5 turns and might get us to settlers quicker. Granary will finish in 8 turns and will certainly speed our build of the GL. I favor the granary.
We find Cerro de Potosi about 7 tiles west of the capital. Nice.
We finally spot Delhi. It’s about 12 tiles from our capital. So everybody knows what comes next. He asks if we wanna be BFF’s. If we say, “sure whatever” he slaps a new Indian city right under our chins. Just a little happy thought for ya Brichals.
I was moving our scarcher west to see how close Egypt was. He can cut in a little, but should probably come back soon. That barb camp near the capital has to go.
Our next border pop is in 6 turns and will most likely give us the marble.
A look at our capital and the world as we know it.
Turn 11 – We meet Ramesses. His scout comes from the west and snatches the ruin Optimal set up for me. I hate to see this guy. I just played a game as Hiawatha a couple of months ago and this jerk got Hagia Sophia 2 turns before me and then a few turns later blew up Notre Dame and the Porcelain Tower in successive turns with only 2 cities. But I digress…
I head south with our scout and find a consolation ruin.
Spoiler :
Turn 12 – We meet Elizabeth. Her battered scout comes from the northeast by the CS borders near the coast. The world is suddenly looking crowded.
England is already protecting Sydney.
Ramesses and Gandhi go to friendly.
Scout grabs that ruin… Scarcher!
Spoiler :
Turn 13 – Not much. Barbs start appearing near the capital.
Turn 14 – We meet Hanoi (15 gold – punked again by Ramesses), a neutral militaristic CS with incense. They have no protector, usually a great candidate for a worker steal. It will be at least 10 turns before we see them produce a worker, and I actually like military CS units as Siam. They always come double promoted. You guys decide.
Turn 15 – Barb mauls Elizabeth’s scout right in front of the terrified women and children of Sukhothai.
Social Policy – Liberty. 13 turns until our free settler.
Find the barb camp that’s sprouting murderous brutes. It’s only 5 tiles from the capital. Warrior is on his way back to protect our worker. Find another barb camp to the SE that is blocking off a nice city site that will have river, coast, and silk. I leave it be for that reason and in the hopes that Hanoi will give us some quest love.
Spoiler :
Turn 16 – Not much. We smoke the remains of the brute that murdered Elizabeth’s scout with some city bombard and start research on Writing. The fact that none of our “friendly” neighbors have come to us with OB proposals so far is encouraging.
Turn 17 – We meet Warsaw (15 gold), a neutral cultural CS with whales. Warsaw is already under the protection of England and India. Looks like if we want to steal a worker it’s gonna be Hanoi. Maybe we’ll build/buy, but that’s for another day.
Turn 18 – Nothing.
Turn 19 – Nothing.
Turn 20 – Worker out, put him on the horses & put our warrior on him for protection. I don’t pick production for Sukhothai because I suppose there may be discussion. Monument would finish in 5 turns and might get us to settlers quicker. Granary will finish in 8 turns and will certainly speed our build of the GL. I favor the granary.
We find Cerro de Potosi about 7 tiles west of the capital. Nice.
We finally spot Delhi. It’s about 12 tiles from our capital. So everybody knows what comes next. He asks if we wanna be BFF’s. If we say, “sure whatever” he slaps a new Indian city right under our chins. Just a little happy thought for ya Brichals.
I was moving our scarcher west to see how close Egypt was. He can cut in a little, but should probably come back soon. That barb camp near the capital has to go.
Our next border pop is in 6 turns and will most likely give us the marble.
A look at our capital and the world as we know it.
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Optional
Deity
You can blame me, if I hadn't moved south first with the scout we would have gotten it. But of course I couldn't know where the ruin was...
Well, that makes up for it. I mean, we've had 6 ruins, being 2 techs, 1 citizen, 1 culture, 55 gold and an upgrade scout > archer. That's well above average for 12 turns of play!
As Siam? But Siam's bonus is for cultural and maritime CS's. Apart from that I'm with you. Personally I value military CS's just as much as the other ones. In general people say maritime ones are the best, but it depends on how much you need food. Cultural is always useful in my opinion, but a very decisive factor for me is also where a CS is located. Is it a good strategical position?
Did the automatic border expansion take a bland grass tile over the gems? I'm surprised about that. It messes things up a bit, because we haven't got Masonry, only the tech to improve the gems.
Well played, NotSure, time for me to have a look at the save.
grandad1982
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Nice set NotSure.
CdP near the gold, multiple cow, stone and a river?! Can you "touch me, touch me!"
Will look at the save shortly and post more then.
CdP near the gold, multiple cow, stone and a river?! Can you "touch me, touch me!"
Will look at the save shortly and post more then.
NotSure
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Nah... as you said, we can't really complain. The ruins gods were very good to us this game.
I don't know why border expansion hates forested hills so much. I was afraid that might happen. I don't like the idea of buying it either...
I guess I should have said I like the military CS the least, but I still like them. You're right of course, the food and culture are the best and should probably be our top priority. But if we have the chance to easily befriend any CS I think that might make more sense than getting a free worker from them. The military CSs gift double-promoted units to Siam, which is pretty nice.
Optional
Deity
I think that's a mechanism I was simply not familiar with. I thought the description said they got double bonus from cultural and maritime CS, but I haven't played Siam much.
By the way, if there are any comments on 10-turn sets, please give a shout. I realize it's a bit short. NotSure has hardly had any decisions to make, I can understand if that's not ideal.
Also if people rather have a different spot on the roster, please say. A skip or swap is always possible. The roster has been compiled without knowledge of anybody's schedule.
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